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   Escoffier Gab refugee (escoffier@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 17-Feb-2025 15:20:41 JST Escoffier Gab refugee
   > I believe the traditional Mass is compelling because it is decidedly – one might say blessedly – not the product of what I call “religion on the model of rhetoric.”
   
   Worth noting that that was one of the big takeaways of the Tom Wadsworth videos.
   
   RT: https://www.minds.com/api/activitypub/users/1626560422482022411/entities/urn:activity:1737247619396145152
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     Snidely_Whiplash (snidely_whiplash@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 17-Feb-2025 15:20:38 JST Snidely_Whiplash

     in reply to

     • James_Dixon
     A Mass may be instructive, but its purpose is not didactic.
     A Mass may be comforting, but its purpose is not to consolation.
     A Mass may be inspiring, but its purpose is not inspirational.
     A Mass may be beautiful, but it's purpose is not beauty.
     A Mass may be communal, but it's purpose is not community.
     A Mass can and should be all these things, but they are all secondary.
     The purpose of Mass is to worship God in Spirit and Truth.
     BowserNoodle ☦️ likes this.
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     James_Dixon (james_dixon@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 17-Feb-2025 15:20:39 JST James_Dixon

     in reply to
     @Escoffier @jesuspilled > I may be extra dense tonight but i'm not sure what the point is
     
     I merely wanted people to see what was being discussed. Very few people actually know the Traditional Latin Mass or how it was shaped by the English to form the Anglican service.
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     James_Dixon (james_dixon@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 17-Feb-2025 15:20:40 JST James_Dixon

     in reply to
     @Escoffier @jesuspilled The Latin version with English translation of the Extraordinary Form of the Traditional Latin Mass:
     
     https://www.extraordinaryform.org/ExtraordinaryFormTex...
     
     Compare and contrast to the Anglican English Communion from the 1928 Prayer Book:
     
     http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/HC.htm
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     Escoffier Gab refugee (escoffier@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 17-Feb-2025 15:20:40 JST Escoffier Gab refugee

     in reply to

     • James_Dixon
     @James_Dixon @jesuspilled I may be extra dense tonight but i'm not sure what the point is
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     Escoffier Gab refugee (escoffier@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:08 JST Escoffier Gab refugee

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     • James_Dixon
     @James_Dixon @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled At this point u have to wonder if we have a language in common? All evidence would suggest the answer is no.
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     James_Dixon (james_dixon@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:08 JST James_Dixon

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     @Escoffier @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled > At this point u have to wonder if we have a language in common?
     
     Not when it comes to the Church, no. Most of what I'm saying is lost on you.
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     James_Dixon (james_dixon@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:09 JST James_Dixon

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     @Escoffier @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled > And yet that is how they did it
     
     Is it? I wasn't there. Neither were you.
     
     The Latin Mass goes back at least to the 300's. Did they really get it all wrong in less than 300 years?
     
     Even Wikipedia, which can hardly be considered Christian friendly, notes that " Hugh Somerville-Knapman, O.S.B., says that they should be separate rites, as the Mass promulgated at the Council of Trent was already the pre-existing liturgy of the Diocese of Rome and has direct continuity with the Mass practiced by the apostles"
     
     You can complain about a lot of things with the modern Church, but if you believe the words of Christ, the Communion service is not one of them.
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     Escoffier Gab refugee (escoffier@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:09 JST Escoffier Gab refugee

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     • James_Dixon
     @James_Dixon @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled >Did they really get it all wrong in less than 300 years?
     
     Well as that is exactly my position, yes.
     
     Ahem: I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. -Acts 20;29
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     James_Dixon (james_dixon@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:09 JST James_Dixon

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     @Escoffier @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled > Well as that is exactly my position, yes.
     
     And to the degree that you argue the Communion service (Eucharist, Mass, whatever you want to call it) is one of those things, you're wrong.
     
     It really is that simple. You can confess your sins directly to God. You can be married in the eyes of God without a church. Without a church you don't need confirmation or ordination. And arguably even baptism doesn't need the church since it the baptism of the Holy Spirit that matters, though that's not something I'd like to test.
     
     But Communion cannot be replaced outside the Church. It requires a stand in for Christ to consecrate the bread and wine as he did for his disciples. And that is something that not just anyone can do. It requires a community of Christians to choose someone worthy to do so and ask God's blessing on his position, and that community is by definition a church and part of the Church.
     
     Fortunately, God is not limited by space and time, so a virtual church will do for receiving Communion.
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     Escoffier Gab refugee (escoffier@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:10 JST Escoffier Gab refugee

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     • James_Dixon
     @James_Dixon @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled I believe the Apostles had a purpose for both gatherings and I think we managed to cobble together the dumbest possible version or perhaps the most pointless version.
     
     To be clear a coffee clatch or a pot luck supper IS NOT the Agape Feast. The Agape feast was how they did communion not just wine and crackers and the other gathering was for the purpose of training up the Saints something we just gave up on.
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     James_Dixon (james_dixon@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:10 JST James_Dixon

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     @Escoffier @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled > I believe the Apostles had a purpose for both gatherings and I think we managed to cobble together the dumbest possible version or perhaps the most pointless version.
     
     There is nothing pointless about the body and blood of Christ. That's the specific thing he commanded us to do.
     
     > The Agape feast was how they did communion not just wine and crackers
     
     Again, the wine and bread are the body and blood of Christ. That's what the commandment is about. Not the meal itself. He didn't say "eat a meal to in remembrance of me". He said "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."
     
     That's what the Communion service is. Keeping that specific commandment. We don't know for certain why it's necessary for us to do so (though I can hazard a few guesses), but we know it is because otherwise he would not have commanded it.
     
     Christian fellowship is always a good thing, and the sharing of a meal is a perfectly acceptable part of that. But it's not a Mass. It's not Communion. They're completely separate things.
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     Escoffier Gab refugee (escoffier@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:10 JST Escoffier Gab refugee

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     • James_Dixon
     @James_Dixon @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled > and the sharing of a meal is a perfectly acceptable part of that. But it's not a Mass. It's not Communion. They're completely separate things.
     
     And yet that is how they did it
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     James_Dixon (james_dixon@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:11 JST James_Dixon

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     @Snidely_Whiplash @Escoffier @jesuspilled > The purpose of Mass is to worship God in Spirit and Truth.
     
     The only thing I know for certain about Communion is that Christ commanded us to do it.
     
     "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."
     
     As far as I can tell this was intended as a direct commandment to all of his followers for all time, at least until his return.
     
     I consider it extremely unwise to disobey one of his direct commandments.
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     Escoffier Gab refugee (escoffier@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:11 JST Escoffier Gab refugee

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     • James_Dixon
     @James_Dixon @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled So from an early Church point of view (during the Apostles lifetime) they has what they called the Agape feast which seemed to be a recreation of the Lord's support with actual food and liturgical elements and then a second gathering which was more casual where they would express their gifts and edify one another. We seem to have just mashed those together in the modern Church and my questions remain the same: why are we all so sure we're doing things correctly and what error was being fixed by this mashup?
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     James_Dixon (james_dixon@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:58:11 JST James_Dixon

     in reply to

     • Snidely_Whiplash
     @Escoffier @Snidely_Whiplash @jesuspilled > So from an early Church point of view (during the Apostles lifetime) they has what they called the Agape feast which seemed to be a recreation of the Lord's support with actual food and liturgical elements
     
     The modern service is ceremonial in that it recognizes that Christ said that it was actually his body an blood that were being consumed, so proper care of the items is required. Obviously he was there in person to correct any problems at the last supper.
     
     > and then a second gathering which was more casual where they would express their gifts and edify one another.
     
     That's an after service meal, which was still fairly common when I was a child. I don't know how common it is now. Most churches I've been to still serve coffee/tea/snacks after the service though.
     
     > and what error was being fixed by this mashup?
     
     Why does doing things in a more ceremonial, safer (for the elements used in the service), and more convenient way have to be fixing an error?