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1. Embed this notice
   Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Jan-2025 20:53:52 JST Glyn Moody

   #LLM Taken Down Following Legal Pressure from Anti-Piracy Group - https://torrentfreak.com/llm-taken-down-following-legal-pressure-from-anti-piracy-group-250128/ absurd; it's just knowledge

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Jan-2025 21:08:33 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     @glynmoody It's copyright violation on a massive scale, is what it is, and the anti-piracy group is in the right in this case. It's possible to train LLMs legally: but the techbro culture of "move fast and break things" includes "laws" in things they think it's okay to break.

   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Jan-2025 22:00:16 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @cstross I'm afraid I don't agree. extracting patterns from any copyright material isn't an infringement, and claiming it is, is a constraint on sharing knowledge, and just sets up publishers as gatekeepers

     Alexandre Oliva likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Michael Kohne (mhkohne@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:15:59 JST Michael Kohne

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @glynmoody @cstross Given that the AIs have repeatedly been made to cough up source material, I'd say they aren't extracting patterns, but rather incorporating the original material whole hog.

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:37:38 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     @glynmoody It's not just extracting patterns: the entire content is present and can be regurgitated/reconstructed.

   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:41:48 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @cstross *if* the entire book is regurgitated, then you can plausibly claim infringement for that particular output; but otherwise it's just mathematical weights based on millions of books - that's different.

   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:43:46 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Michael Kohne
     • Charlie Stross

     @mhkohne they are extracting patterns, but you can get them to reconstruct input if you try; arguably that is the problem, not the analysis @cstross

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:45:05 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     @glynmoody Nope: in UK copyright law "fair dealing" covers SHORT extracts of up to about 20 words. Emit more than that? The LLM is in breach of the law.

     Glyn Moody repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:45:43 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Don Marti
     • Charlie Stross
     • Fábio Costa 🐇🕐🎩☕

     @dmarti thus guaranteeing that EU AI is not as good as US/Chinese AI and that EU viewpoints are underrepresented in the weightings... @fabiocosta0305 @cstross

   • Embed this notice
     Don Marti (dmarti@federate.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:45:45 JST Don Marti

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross
     • Fábio Costa 🐇🕐🎩☕

     @fabiocosta0305 @glynmoody @cstross The fair use issue in the USA still isn't decided. In the EU, though, AI can be trained on copyrighted works unless the copyright holder "expressly reserves" -- which all the mainstream publishing companies, and most independent authors, have been doing

     https://cultureactioneurope.org/news/european-parliament-adopts-the-ai-act/

   • Embed this notice
     Fábio Costa 🐇🕐🎩☕ (fabiocosta0305@ursal.zone)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:45:46 JST Fábio Costa 🐇🕐🎩☕

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @glynmoody @cstross AFAIK, training AI doesn't fall on the criteria for Fair Use, UNLESS you can build an AI to create parodies or critics on those stuff

   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:46:30 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @cstross which confirms that copyright law is out of touch with today's digital realities...

   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:56:34 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross
     • Richard Ayres

     @rayres definitely my approach when I'm in court... @cstross

     Charlie Stross repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Richard Ayres (rayres@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 00:56:35 JST Richard Ayres

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @glynmoody @cstross "I'm sorry m'lud, you're just out of date with today's realities."

   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 01:15:35 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross
     • Richard Ayres

     @rayres indeed @cstross

   • Embed this notice
     Richard Ayres (rayres@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 01:15:36 JST Richard Ayres

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @glynmoody @cstross mind you, today's realities probably include the law bending over backwards to accommodate billionaires. I wonder if this Dutch LLM is owned by a billi... "The LLM developers lack the funds to litigate the matter" so that's that then

   • Embed this notice
     jer (jerrej@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 01:37:50 JST jer

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @glynmoody @cstross

     The red traffic light my lorry is thundering steadily and progressively towards is out of touch with today's #ai #hallucinations.

   • Embed this notice
     The Penguin of Evil (etchedpixels@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 01:56:30 JST The Penguin of Evil

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross

     @cstross @glynmoody and we all know UK fair dealing fairly broken too. There's a line somewhere between "I stole your book" and "I learned to write reading your book". It's incredibly murky even in law for humans and is going to need some case-law and other stuff to untangle at all let alone sanely.
     Other bits are really bad LLM design that need fixing. An LLM shouldn't regurgitate half a book to answer a question it should tell you what book to read because it knows it's using a lot of material

   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 02:11:57 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross
     • Simon Green
     • Richard Ayres

     @Salty so how good does it have to be acceptable for you? @rayres @cstross

   • Embed this notice
     Simon Green (salty@mastodon.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 02:11:58 JST Simon Green

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross
     • Richard Ayres

     @glynmoody @rayres @cstross You could fairly accuse me of hypocrisy but I see a human making fair use of an artist's content to produce new art quite differently from an LLM using it to produce garbage. If I were an artist and my art inspired new art, I would be honoured. The garbage an LLM vomits out... not so much.

     I don't think LLMs should be able to claim fair use. What they do is not what the point of fair use is all about.

   • Embed this notice
     Glyn Moody (glynmoody@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 02:19:50 JST Glyn Moody

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross
     • Simon Green
     • Richard Ayres

     @Salty I think many human artists fail that test... @rayres @cstross

   • Embed this notice
     Simon Green (salty@mastodon.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 29-Jan-2025 02:19:51 JST Simon Green

     in reply to

     • Charlie Stross
     • Richard Ayres

     @glynmoody @rayres @cstross When the AGI can coherently explain their own work in the same way a human artist does. Otherwise, it’s just random noise.