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   Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 01:34:11 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

   • brigrammer
   > Stelpaviricetes is a class of non-enveloped, positive-strand RNA viruses which infect plants and animals.[1]
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stelpaviricetes
   
   granted this is an enveloped virus but still. positive single stranded RNA viruses can not only infect everything in kingdom mamalia but *plants*
   
   @brigrammer
   • Embed this notice
     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 01:48:03 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

     in reply to

     • brigrammer
     @brigrammer all viruses are 'classes' of viruses , especially rna viruses have significant copying errors and are evolving all the time
     
     it's just a matter of how big of a class
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     brigrammer (brigrammer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 01:48:04 JST brigrammer

     in reply to

     @jeffcliff https://byjus.com/biology/difference-between-plant-virus-and-animal-virus/

     Please find A virus that can infect both, not a class of viruses.

     Because I cannot find such a thing, and when I look the scientist people keep saying that isn't a thing.

   • Embed this notice
     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 01:51:37 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

     in reply to

     • brigrammer
     @brigrammer https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6548363/
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     brigrammer (brigrammer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 01:53:14 JST brigrammer

     in reply to

     @jeffcliff did you find a species that does both, all I can find is things saying no

     if you cannot find a specific species that is said to do both, and not just a very wikipedia blurb that cites a table of articles without an actual claim that one virus can do that, I have to say you have failed to disprove the null hypothesis that they can't

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     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 01:53:14 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

     in reply to

     • brigrammer
     @brigrammer see next post
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     brigrammer (brigrammer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:04:53 JST brigrammer

     in reply to

     @jeffcliff if I read this correctly, tldr is they made a virus culture, sprinkled it on plants and added it to a culture of animal cells, and claim they virus got into both (well, only probably got into the animal cells, and no proof of actual infection)

     so, assuming that was true (which - no, the abstract claims way too much and this is nowhere near showing what the abstract claims) - this does not demonstrate that any virus can let alone does do this in the wild

   • Embed this notice
     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:04:53 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

     in reply to

     • brigrammer
     @brigrammer
     
     They *observed* replication in animals (via immunoflorecence) and did a test of whether or not it was infectious in plants, which it passed in multiple ways.
   • Embed this notice
     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:14:23 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

     in reply to

     • brigrammer
     @brigrammer > but you are applying McScience so much, confusing a result with a disproven null hypothesis, and ignoring the need for replication and verification
     
     I'm not ignoring anything, especially the need for replication (of findings). They had multiple reasons for concluding replication in animal cells, and you don't get to just ignore it because it disagrees with your preconceptions
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     brigrammer (brigrammer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:14:24 JST brigrammer

     in reply to

     @jeffcliff They observed immunoflorecence, which they themselves say is at best an indication replication in animals cells may have happened

     and I hope they do more research to find out if the cells are actually infected, and if they do perhaps there is a whole field of things for scientists to go look at

     but you are applying McScience so much, confusing a result with a disproven null hypothesis, and ignoring the need for replication and verification, and fundamentally not understanding the Scientific process

     touch grass

   • Embed this notice
     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:22:34 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

     in reply to

     • brigrammer
     @brigrammer
     
     And what alternative possibility explains their data?
     
     it's not the only case of this happening either
     
     https://enviromicro-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1462-2920.15028 lists a whole bunch.
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     brigrammer (brigrammer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:22:35 JST brigrammer

     in reply to

     @jeffcliff they have a data point, they say "I think that could mean X", so now they need to go get other data to show that other possible causes for X are not shown by the data

     because for a claim to be accepted, all alternative possibilities must be exhausted

     you seem to assume I think "that did not happen" but I am thinking "they have a lot of work to do" and mostly am thinking "I am not sure how this has to do with Jeff, he should get a hobby and a girlfriend"

     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 repeated this.
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     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:24:22 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

     in reply to

     • brigrammer
     @brigrammer including the tobacco mosaic virus :mind_blown:
   • Embed this notice
     Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧 (jeffcliff@shitposter.world)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:56:52 JST Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴‍☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧

     in reply to

     • brigrammer
     @brigrammer
     
     > use PCR, more koch-like-test
     
     isn't an alternative hypothesis.
     
     None of your alternative explanations would explain what they saw.
     
     > the data itself could be faulty,
     
     yeah that's about the only thing you've got here, which of course it could.
   • Embed this notice
     brigrammer (brigrammer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 18-Jan-2025 02:56:53 JST brigrammer

     in reply to
     @jeffcliff

     And what alternative possibility explains their data?

     I would imagine a protocol of providing the virus particles an opportunity to infect the cells in culture, getting a baseline of the amount of viral sequence in that sample with say PCR, then introducing those cells into a much larger culture, giving the cells time to infect their neighbors, then with something like PCR again determine the level of viral sequence in the new culture to see if replication occurred

     but that is me being an armchair-engineer, I am not a scientist so I don't know the limits of their tests

     as to how add one thing to another could cause number to go up if not infection - well, that just makes me think of the meat-maggot-fly problem and the simple test by means of keeping flies out that proved the meat did not spontaneously generate life

     And what alternative possibility explains their data?

     the cells themselves could be reacting to dna sequences like immune cells can, the viruses could be binding to cells and then without infection producing proteins on the surface of cells, the data itself could be faulty, etc. there are litterally an arbitrary number of possibilties

     I cannot prove any of these things, it is not my field so I really shouldn't be coming up with alternatives, and it is not my burden to, it is the researcher's burden to disprove the endless possibility of other things and they researchers themselves do not say they proved infection and replication, merely presence of something they believed would increase if their idea was right

     I am not opposed to them being right, science is not supposed to be adversarial but skeptical, and you have a jump to conclusions mind incompatible with the process of science