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   Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:07:17 JST Rich Felker

   OK, here goes. This is a thread I've been wanting to put into words for a long time. And, this being both Christmas and the eve of the fascist takeover of the US, now seems as good a time as any.

   A 🧵 on Rape Theology

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:09:00 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     First, some background on the perspective I'm coming from. I'm by no means an "exvangelical" or someone who's suffered personally at the hand of mainstream Christianity. I was raised basically "non-practicing Christian". As a kid I went a couple times to Sunday School and VBS, but basically just as day-care with a little but of story-telling on the side.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:10:52 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     Later (around high school age) I took a lot of interest in religion. To the extent that I've read more of the NT, more times, than most professed Christians, especially Bible thumpers and evangelicals. I have a familiarity with it from, at that point in my life, wanting to understand and appreciate what was there.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:11:48 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     That's all in the distant past for me now; probably the closest thing to a spiritual alignment you can pin on me in recent decades is "humanist". But I felt like it was important context before I go where I'm going with this.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:13:18 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     What follows is an indictment of anyone who clings to mainstream interpretations and is unwilling to challenge and deny them.

     Folks who have been harmed by Christianity might like to take this as an indictment of anyone who calls themselves Christian, and I wouldn't fault you for that.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:14:49 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     But from my perspective, this indictment is a challenge to anyone who wants to identify as Christian, but for it to be something "good", not to just grapple with, but to come out with a belief framework that's compatible with human values, and that doesn't glorify rape.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:16:33 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     So, to get to the offensive point:

     The mainstream Christian interpretation of the religion's founding story is:

     "God committed rape, that's how we got our Savior, and that's A Good Thing."

     And this is inseparable from political talking points that "sometimes something good can come out of rape".

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:18:29 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     Please, don't reply with excuses. I've heard them all before.

     "Retroactive consent", whatever, doesn't exist and doesn't erase that rape is rape.

     Whatever physical body parts were or weren't supposedly involved doesn't erase that impregnating someone who didn't consent to an act which risks pregnancy is rape.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:20:25 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     The story as it's told and accepted literally was rape. By a supernatural being. If you're accepting that at face value, and worshipping that being, you are worshipping a rapist. It's as simple as that.

     If not, you need to call out the people who are, and find an interpretation compatible with your values.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:21:00 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     Don't act surprised when people who are literally, happily, worshipping a supernatural rapist also happily elect a human rapist.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:22:53 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     So, what do I want you to do? If you want to believe in a supernatural being, this can be a sort of worldbuilding exercise:

     "What circumstances would lead an actually-benevolent being people worship to convey to Mary the message you believe she received?"

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:25:24 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     I'm sure there are lots of things you can come up with, but to me the natural benevolent-being version has God giving the story to a young woman who found herself unexpectedly pregnant, whether by rape or consensual sex or whatever, and causing people to believe it, as a way to save her from a society who would condemn her for that.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:26:55 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     Another somewhat plausible, but highly nonstandard/heretical 😈 interpretation is that God the Father, God the Rapist, was evil, and that his son replaces him. I don't think you'll find that very popular with Christians, but I guess it's an option. 🤷 🙃

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:28:07 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     If you don't want to believe in supernatural beings, I think it's all pretty straightforward: Mary is the hero for making up and getting people to believe a story to save herself from a violently misogynist society.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:29:30 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     Regardless, people who, after having been challenged with these kinds of ideas, cling to the idea that their god *caused* Mary's pregnancy, and simultaneously tha their god is good, are monsters.

     Monsters who are practicing what I've come to call Rape Theology.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:33:16 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     I don't claim to have invented any of these ideas, but over many years (decades now?) I've been disappointed at how little I've seen any of it laid out this explicitly. And I haven't come across the phrase "Rape Theology" used elsewhere, despite the fact that the mainstream interpretation here is clearly a theology built around rape as the central glorified act.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 00:35:56 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     I believe this all is core to realizing what we're up against: people who believe, deeply and religiously, that rape and forced-birthing are not just okay but GODLY.

     And people who are unwilling to stand up to them because they believe, yeah, this is basically what their religion says.

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     Wanja (muvlon@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 01:09:01 JST Wanja

     in reply to

     @dalias The other central act of christianity (the one enshrined in the name and logo of the religion) is somebody's torturous public execution.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 01:15:56 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Wanja

     @muvlon Yeah, that's cringe too, but as least it's arguably voluntary martyrdom. Vs "retroactively consenting to forced pregnancy and birthing".

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     samiamsam (samiamsam@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 02:15:45 JST samiamsam

     in reply to

     • Wanja

     @muvlon @dalias

     i grew up with a huge realistic bloody jesus on a cross over the altar of our Eastern European catholic church

     it is spiritual abuse, period

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 02:15:45 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Wanja
     • samiamsam

     @samiamsam @muvlon I don't doubt there are all sorts of horrors of spiritual abuse I've been fortunate not to have seen.

     Here I was trying to focus on how, even among Christians who see themselves as not being "that kind", there's a horrible central premise that most won't challenge.

     But I welcome perspectives like yours as additions to this thread.

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     samiamsam (samiamsam@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 02:27:00 JST samiamsam

     in reply to

     • Wanja

     @dalias @muvlon

     thanks for calling rape theology out specifically

     some of this is so insidious

     many people just don't see it and when it is called out outside of 'tradition' which often equals we are just 'used to it' they are a bit shocked

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 26-Dec-2024 14:30:01 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     Coming back to this a couple days later after having been reminded by folks of some textual details, post 12 above (https://hachyderm.io/@dalias/113708493850933170) is basically what comes naturally if you only read Matthew, where the only borderline-supernatural/dream message is to Joseph not Mary, and Joseph's character is praised for how he first plans to, and ultimately, handles her pregnancy.

     It's the account from Mary's side in Luke that really seems to inspire rape-theological interpretation.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 26-Dec-2024 14:40:37 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     And here, there are some details I forgot to address. Rape/rape-theology apologists can cite Luke reporting conception happening after being told of it by Gabriel, and argue this constitutes consent - despite fear, age, power imbalance, and Gabriela words being presented as an order. And then they'll apply these same forms of reasoning to non-supernatural rape.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 26-Dec-2024 14:43:58 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     They'll also use God's omniscience as an excuse, saying it's okay because he could know ahead of time that Mary would consent.

     This is also a principle they'll carry over to human rape, saying they knew their victim's mind so well they knew she'd be fine with it, even though she was drunk, and that if she says otherwise, she "changed her mind after".

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