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   mc.fly (mcfly@milliways.social)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 00:30:08 JST mc.fly

   • Quinn Norton

   @quinn the moment where that was "invented" in Europe there was no real meaningful contact to them.

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     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 00:30:06 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     @mcfly there had been plenty. the English colonies were in contact with them since the 16th century. News of, and even people from, made their way to Europe. The framers of the Constitution (which had... considerable contact) cited the Confederacy as an inspiration and source.

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     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 22:09:59 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     @mcfly they were more councils votes than what we consider democracy now, and they were exceedingly rare and didn't last long. it was a very primitive form of decision making compared to what we call democracy now, and honestly the greeks get too much credit for that as democracy. elders and chieftains voting existed everywhere, and was never too democratic. the iroquois had wide suffrage systems by comparison.

     it's a bit like calling anything that's not kings democracy.

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     mc.fly (mcfly@milliways.social)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 22:10:01 JST mc.fly

     in reply to

     • Quinn Norton

     @quinn what would you or the poster above consider a western democracy?

     Especially as several states in Greece were considered western democracies.

     The Greece democracies were around 500BCE

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     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 22:11:02 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • Rafa

     @rafa @mcfly i actually found that book kind of insufferable but yes this is obviously right and well documented.

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     Rafa (rafa@piaille.fr)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 22:11:10 JST Rafa

     in reply to

     • Quinn Norton

     @mcfly @quinn David Graeber and David Wengrow wrote in their book about how North Americans heavily influenced the Enlightenment in Europe, through their sharp criticism of monarchy rule. Many native americans were highly skilled orators and philosophers, even coming to live in Europe and brought into academic circles. USA's constitution was also heavily based on Iroquois Confederacy. Greek democracies didn't have equality as one of its values, the Enlightenment took that idea from North American natives.