Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 06:20:21 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

   Libertarians are wrong. The rich do not deserve every penny they get. Giving to those less fortunate than you is not optional. And unfortunately, we cannot trust people to do this of our own accord. That's why we have a society with laws, a state.

   The #Torah / #Bible says,

   and you say to yourselves, “My own power and the might of my own hand have won this wealth for me.” Remember that it is your God who gives you the power to get wealth, in fulfillment of the covenant made on oath with your fathers, as is still the case.

   Deuteronomy 8:17-18

   #libertarian #anarchism #politics #religion #Judaism #TaxTheRich

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:22:11 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @AlexanderKingsbury Your policies tend to give the rich a free pass. I'm not sorry about what I said. The rich exploit workers and short their pay, and suppress unions. That's not good.

   • Embed this notice
     AKingsbury (alexanderkingsbury@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:22:12 JST AKingsbury

     in reply to

     @kolev

     Well, you ascribe a lot to libertarians. For one, you seem to assert that we think that the rich "deserve every penny they get". I doubt you could find a libertarian anywhere that will say that; the rich are just as capable of fraud and theft as the poor are, in many ways more so. We don't support fraudulent ways of gaining wealth, whether used by the rich or the poor.

   • Embed this notice
     AKingsbury (alexanderkingsbury@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:26:04 JST AKingsbury

     in reply to

     @kolev

     I never imagined you would be sorry for what you said. But the point is, you ascribe claims and positions to libertarians that we simply do not hold.

     You're attacking a straw man. If you want to change what people think, it's a good first step to actually understand what they think.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:26:04 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @AlexanderKingsbury I'm pretty sure libertarians are against charity by force, which I am definitely for.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:35:11 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @AlexanderKingsbury When I say charity, I actually mean צדקה "justice," which is commanded by G-d and is in no way voluntary. When you don't give money to the poor, you're stealing from G-d.

   • Embed this notice
     AKingsbury (alexanderkingsbury@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:35:12 JST AKingsbury

     in reply to

     @kolev

     "Charity by force" is a contradiction in terms; "charity" implies a voluntary act.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:38:48 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @AlexanderKingsbury I support a system of law that would do that. You as a person are not authorized by judges to order the confiscation of money.

   • Embed this notice
     AKingsbury (alexanderkingsbury@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:38:49 JST AKingsbury

     in reply to

     @kolev

     That's an entirely different claim to make.

     You say you support "charity by force". Suppose I go out tonight with a gun and rob a random passerby on the street; I take the $500 in cash they have,. Then I go give it to the local soup kitchen. Would you support that? Is that justice?

   • Embed this notice
     AKingsbury (alexanderkingsbury@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:49:25 JST AKingsbury

     in reply to

     @kolev

     Okay, so you wouldn't support me doing that. What if I hired someone ELSE to do it? I'll even tell them they're only allowed to rob a rich person.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 09:49:25 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @AlexanderKingsbury I would only be OK with it if a majority of the population hired them and it was approved by a judge under the Constitution.

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 10:17:51 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury That's not charity or tzedkah, that's taxation. And while yes, some libertarians oppose taxation, most do not, although they may quibble on the details like amount or what it's used for, or acknowledging that it's taking someone's property against their will through the use or threat of violence, which changes how we think about it.

     "We should have higher taxes!"

     vs

     "The State should do more extortion!"

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 10:17:51 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic

     How isn't mandatory tithing effectively a tax?

     If people paid into the system the way they should, then there would be no need to force them, but that's not the world we live in.

     @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 10:34:34 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury That's the difference - if it's voluntary, it's a charity, if it's mandatory it's a tax, and we interpret those very differently (and we should).

     If I don't tithe, then nobody will actually force me, I just know I'm not doing the mitzvah, and certain consequences may or may not flow on from that depending on G-d's will. If I don't pay my tax, I will be subject to violence by the State.

     These are not the same situation.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 10:34:34 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic

     While forcing a mitzvah cheapens it and is not ideal, I'd rather exert some sort of pressure on people to do the right thing, when it comes to universal moral issues that aren't necessarily tied to a mitzvah, like providing for the poor.

     There must be a way to shun or punish those who rob the poor.

     Our money doesn't belong to us. We must give our ten percent (or more).

     Unfortunately, using boycotts to force the free market to change with moral wishes of the people is not always possible. Corporations can often agree to do an abusive practice across the board in all of their businesses, making avoiding them impossible.

     @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 10:50:17 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury Also, sideline, providing for the poor is a mitzvah, so maybe a poor choice for an example there. Rambam wrote about this pretty explicitly.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 10:50:17 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic

     It is a mitzvah, but it is also a universal value. You don't need a religion to tell you that providing for the poor is a good thing. Also, you could probably tie this into the Seven Noahide Laws in some way, though it may be a stretch.

     @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:05:11 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury Probably could, but now you're talking about enforcing Jewish law on non-Jews, presumably against their will. No matter the religion, that's a dark path.

     And if we're talking a universal value, wouldn't people already be doing it?

     I would argue we do have pressure to e.g. help the poor, that's why we generally view it as a good thing to do and praise people who do it. It's weaker than I'd like, but it's hardly absent.

     But that's a tangent.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:05:11 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic

     You're right, I'm not for a theocracy. Once again, forcing a mitzvah cheapens it.

     However, just because a value can be found in all religions/cultures, doesn't mean that everyone actually does it. I don't know what to say, about how to actually get people to do it, but I'm not opposed to using taxation to accomplish this ideal that exists in all cultures present.

     The atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus... They all agree that helping the poor is good, but do they actually do it? Ideally, a huge educational campaign on the universal values of giving and kindness would be best, but I don't trust it to be effective enough.

     Maybe those who don't sign on to donate their money will get their businesses boycotted. I don't know. That's one way to enforce this without your "violence" of taxation.

     @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:24:57 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury That's a very libertarian argument to make :)

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:24:57 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic I'm trying to work within your system, yes. But I find it clunky and inefficient, compared to having a system of democratically-elected laws that dictate how income is redistributed to account for the market's lack of concern for our common morality. @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:34:30 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic "People will voluntarily give enough" is not a satisfactory answer, IMHO. There are lots of assholes in the world who don't give, and what punishment do we have for them?

     @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:34:31 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury It's entirely plausible to be both a democracy supporter and a libertarian (e.g. me). It's much harder to be an anarchist and pro-democracy.

     If it's not for you, it's not for you. That's fine, you're entitled to your views. My intention is simply to counter your original point that libertarians don't have an answer for the problem of helping the poor.

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:46:07 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury Let me phrase things a different way.

     "There are people in the world who do things that I/my tribe don't like. How can I use violence against them to enforce my/our will on them?"

     Again, I'm not an anarchist. I think the primary role of government is to ensure a certain minimum level of health/safety for all its citizens, and it regularly fails that, and that implies taxation, which implies at least some violence

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:46:07 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury I also give to charity because I can, and as an individual I believe I have an obligation to help those less fortunate. I see no contradiction between these two positions.

     I also have friends who don't give to charity, despite making more. I don't care for that, and try to convince them to give more. Sometimes I succeed, usually I don't. Are you arguing I should be violent towards them?

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 11:46:07 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic Maybe you should shun them, if you can't be violent toward them, and tell them it is because they will not give to charity. I don't know what else there is to do.

     @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 12:12:10 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury I think we can agree that the government (broadly speaking) should do more to ensure the poorer people can meet their basic needs and dignity. We can discuss about how best to do that, but surely that's the main problem here?

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 12:12:10 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic

     Yes.

     But I was of the impression that libertarians want everything privatized.

     I'm blanking on an example, but the government has to respect certain rights while the private sector does not. For instance, speech can be censored by private entities based on any whim, whereas the government has to allow it.

     Because the private sector doesn't have to respect certain rights, freedoms are eroded.

     @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 12:12:11 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury So I should cut friends out of my life, people who have stood beside me and supported me when I've been seriously struggling and are otherwise generally good people, because they don't donate to pick up the slack where the government has wilfully refused to meet it's basic job? Does that sound like something a good person would do to you?

     If you try to generalise the idea it gets really, really hard, really fast

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 12:22:40 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury
     • frustrated_academic

     @frustrated_academic

     What's the context of the "no public prayer" thing? That sounds fishy, regardless. No brachos over food anymore?

     @AlexanderKingsbury

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 12:22:41 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury Some do, some don't, it really depends on the libertarian - it's a very broad school of thought.

     Some businesses, if privatised, would run more efficiently, but as you point out that can run into problems. So you might, for example, privatise electricity delivery, but have government oversight to ensure certain levels of performance or delivery, in theory getting the benefits of both. Or not, it's complicated.

   • Embed this notice
     frustrated_academic (frustrated_academic@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 12:22:41 JST frustrated_academic

     in reply to

     • AKingsbury

     @kolev @AlexanderKingsbury But let's think about it another way - given the massive push against privacy and increasing criminalisation of speech in a lot of the world (people can and have been arrested for silently praying on the street in the UK, not holding a sign or anything, because there's an abortion center a couple hundred meters down the road), I'm not sure we can assume government is a dramatically better path for ensuring our rights either

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Nov-2024 06:24:10 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • Ashdod Synagogue

     @ashdod Who gets to decide? As a society, we need to get to an agreement on who that is. Saying each individual gets to decide is wrong, IMHO, because trusting people to regulate themselves is... naive. Democracy works well.

   • Embed this notice
     Ashdod Synagogue (ashdod@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Nov-2024 06:24:11 JST Ashdod Synagogue

     in reply to

     @kolev There is also a law, The poor of your community first. You can not give to people you don't know if your fellow jew close to you needs financial help.

     I don't think the #liberterian claim is that they "deserve every penny" but, that the government doesn't get to decide.

   • Embed this notice
     em (em@babka.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Nov-2024 07:47:22 JST em

     in reply to

     • Ashdod Synagogue

     @kolev @ashdod the libertarian position (both right and left) comes from an entirely different way of approaching the problem. But the fundamental point of the position is that the state isn't a legitimate arbiter of justice.

     Trusting people who hold the power to kill with relative impunity (presidents, police, or people acting on their behalf) could also be said to be naive.

     On the other hand, people do tend to regular themselves in most situations - it's generally only when we are pit against each other and need to act selfish in order to survive the conditions of capitalism that we tend to act in non-cooperstive ways.

   • Embed this notice
     Ashdod Synagogue (ashdod@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Nov-2024 08:00:29 JST Ashdod Synagogue

     in reply to

     @kolev IDK about democracy working well, but Government doesn't work well, especially big governments. If the government decides they get to take money from some people and give to others, that isn't what G-d and torah intended.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Nov-2024 08:00:29 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • Ashdod Synagogue

     @ashdod Government is inefficient because it takes into account the people's rights. That's a good thing.

     Taking money is to compensate for lost revenue from people not contributing that money in the first place.

     You think individuals can self-police all the time. You think it's OK for injustices to not go unnoticed, for hoarders to just continue to hoard wealth. I don't.

     Until people give their share voluntarily, we'll need to force them to give it. Doing nothing while people hoard is not an option.

   • Embed this notice
     Ashdod Synagogue (ashdod@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Nov-2024 08:04:30 JST Ashdod Synagogue

     in reply to

     • em

     @em @kolev I think as things get smaller co-operating naturally increases.

     If cooperation is forced on people, they will resent it and do the minimum possible.

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Nov-2024 08:04:30 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • em
     • Ashdod Synagogue

     @ashdod @em I still think volunteerism is silly, especially when there is no realistic way to hold people accountable for not paying their dues. It would be very counter-intuitive to maintain a list of people who don't pay their dues, so we can boycott them. Instead, the free market will just keep rewarding them for their unchecked behavior. All the market cares about is whether someone gets their price.

   • Embed this notice
     em (em@babka.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Nov-2024 17:13:25 JST em

     in reply to

     • Ashdod Synagogue

     @kolev @ashdod to further make my point about how different of a framework libertarianism is (and not trying to convince you of any my position 😃 ), my libertarianism involves the abolition of prices and money altogether.

     but definitely does not involve abolishing holding people accountable.

     if you're ever interested in it, peter kropotkin's "the conquest of bread" would be a good place to start
     (here it is in digital form: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread)

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Nov-2024 02:24:43 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • Ashdod Synagogue

     @ashdod If the majority of people agree that 'this is the right thing to do', then we need to make laws about it, yes.

   • Embed this notice
     Ashdod Synagogue (ashdod@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Nov-2024 02:24:44 JST Ashdod Synagogue

     in reply to

     @kolev So untill people start doing what the government (or you) think is right voluntarily then we need to force them?

   • Embed this notice
     Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱 (kolev@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Nov-2024 02:27:47 JST Caleb KE0VVT 🇮🇱🏳️‍🌈🌱

     in reply to

     • em
     • Ashdod Synagogue

     @em I'm pessimistic about any sort of transition to volunteerism. It's very likely to manifest as anarcho-capitalism. The rich will take advantage of the poor. It's bad enough in our current government, and getting rid of the government will just put market abuses on steroids.

     @ashdod

   • Embed this notice
     em (em@babka.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Nov-2024 02:48:43 JST em

     in reply to

     @kolev that's why I think we should get rid of the capitalists before getting rid of legal institutions. But truth be told, most people writing laws (not to mention enforcing them!) are also capitalists, literal owning class people, so...