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   The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 16:53:48 JST The MILF Messiah
   Interesting that the Israeli pager attack hasn't prompted anyone to ask: "hmmm what if EVs can be compromised to be explosives that can level half a city block "
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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 16:55:23 JST The MILF Messiah

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     • 『VRISKA』
     @vriska Elon Musks really just a mossad plant?
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     『VRISKA』 (vriska@lizards.live)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 16:55:24 JST 『VRISKA』

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     @lunarised cyber truck true ending

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     anemone@ebiverse.social's status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 17:17:04 JST anemone

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     @lunarised@whinge.town anything that size can

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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 17:17:04 JST The MILF Messiah

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     • anemone
     @anemone petrol cars cant really do *that* much damage though, mostly since the reaction can't be fully enclosed (due to combustion)
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     anemone@ebiverse.social's status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 17:25:55 JST anemone

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     @lunarised@whinge.town they can if you put plastic explosives in them, just like you’d need to do with an ev

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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 17:25:55 JST The MILF Messiah

     in reply to

     • anemone
     @anemone Even without plastic explosives, just the battery alone could do a bunch of damage.
     
     The average EV battery can hold around 230000kJ of energy, which is just the energy that can be discharged via regular use. this is around 50kg of TNT.
     
     Theres also the chemical potential the battery holds, which is often 20-30 times this amount... (dispose of batteries safely kids) Basically, 1000Kg of TNT if we take the lower conversion
     
     1Tonne is still ample to level some buildings (2 Tomohawk missiles)
     
     Im not a electro-chemical engineer, but id rather stand next to a petrol engine than an electric one
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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 21:48:42 JST The MILF Messiah

     in reply to

     • Scarlet :02_dance:
     @scarlet
     1) Fair point, however, it serves a thought that things we use everyday carry comparable explosive power to literal weaponry
     
     2) You can do much worse to a battery than some of the EV's that ignite. Sure an EV fire is destructive and can take WEEKs to put out, but we know we can use batteries as an explosive, which is what my point rests on. The napkin Math i did while doing some research on this subject would put the TNT equivalent of an EV to about a metric ton +- 10% of avaliable potential energy that can go boom. (Based on 230,000 kJ of energy capable of being held in a rechargable EV battery (50kg of TNT equivalent of explosive power) which isnt including the other energy stored in a battery, which is often cited as 20-30x the amount the battery can hold for regular discharge, which makes up the metric ton. Granted it cannot all be released at one instant to create a 1ton explosion, but it is more energy than a petrol car could produce (around 300Kg equiv of TNT), and that energy can be utilized by a reaction quicker than a petrol cars explosion (Petrol cars are very bad bombs unless youre within touching distance)
     
     3) Blowing up a city block was hyperbole, sorry it didnt come across, and i dont consider the case of planting additional explosives to be part of my point, you can already do that with bicycles and skateboards even
     
     Again, im not a Electro-chemical engineer, nor am i claiming to be, I have run this past some to get the 20x number for battery potentials though
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     Scarlet :02_dance: (scarlet@bae.st)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 21:48:43 JST Scarlet :02_dance:

     in reply to
     @lunarised
     1) the pagers were deadly cause they put literal explosives (like C4) in them, not because of lithium batteries.
     2) EVs CAN be compromised so that their batteries ignite, in fact China has EVs randomly burst into flames all the fricking time (btw, never buy a Chinese car). But unless the EV is parked directly next to a building, or something else, it will only burn itself out. You're not gonna get 1 EV to take out a city block, or half of it, or whatever, by exploding. Worst thing you can do, is park it very close to buildings, so that the fire spreads from the EV.
     3) If you're thinking about compromising an EV with C4, I guess you could eventually put enough in it to blow up a city block. But by the time you carve out enough space in the car's guts for the C4, it's gonna be hard to miss that someone transformed your favorite Tesla into a bomb on wheels. The reason the pager thing worked in the first place, is because nobody even considered there could be room inside it for some extra C4, so nobody took the precaution to take one apart to look.
     The MILF Messiah likes this.
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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 21:50:12 JST The MILF Messiah

     in reply to

     • Scarlet :02_dance:
     @scarlet for clarification, EV's can explode strongly without external oxygen supplies, which is not true for petrol cars, although both make excellent fire hazards too
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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 21:55:24 JST The MILF Messiah

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     • :suya:
     @newt ':) i was very bad at making my point apparently. My point was explosives in densely packed civilian areas that can be remotely detonated. While a pager battery can kill under the right circumstances, I would truly be amazing for them to get the rates they did. I was merely pointing out that we drive around in bombs, and EV's are much more well engineered bombs
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 21:55:26 JST :suya:

     in reply to
     @lunarised it seems to have been a separate explosive charge, not the pager battery.
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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 21:59:47 JST The MILF Messiah

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt Carbombs are pretty weak explosions compared to what an EV can put out, and youll need to have someone physically light it.
     
     With EV's driven by *proprietary* software, and being often network connected, I think its not outside the realm of possibility for someone to remotely detonate some random chuds EV, especially knowing a bunch of manufacturers have a way to access the battery controller remotely (see Teslas blocking batteries from being charged)
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 21:59:48 JST :suya:

     in reply to
     @lunarised i mean, that is true, but hardly news. It's what almost every militant group has been doing in the past 100 years or so.
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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 22:01:53 JST The MILF Messiah

     in reply to

     • Scarlet :02_dance:
     @scarlet more clarification: im not claiming you're incorrect or anything. Im acknowledging my original post was worded in a weird way and that i am a big stupid head with an ugly face and a big butt and i like to kiss my own butt
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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 22:08:36 JST The MILF Messiah

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt The way EVs fail is normally through a energy leak causing a fire. Sure, but that is true with regular re-chargeable batteries. But we often see them explode too. Both are just a different way of releasing excess potential energy after all. University of Californias chem department says that they can explode, but at a 30th of the rate of gasoline cars. Im not sure how they got to the number, but i'll trust it
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 22:08:37 JST :suya:

     in reply to
     @lunarised do EVs explode that hard? I've seen battery fires, but they aren't explosions.
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     The MILF Messiah (lunarised@whinge.town)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 23:28:15 JST The MILF Messiah

     in reply to

     • Scarlet :02_dance:
     @scarlet
     
     > Batteries cannot explode
     
     https://chemistry.berkeley.edu/news/why-do-batteries-sometimes-catch-fire-and-explode
     
     Explode is mentioned by a article from Berkeley university. If we really want to go with semantics on the term explosion, academic in this instance is happy to use it. If the battery fire is enclosed in a casing (again, modern batteries dont need external oxidation), pressure can build up and the casing can explode due to pressure. Compared to a liquid fuel car, the main difference here is access to oxidation.
     
     
     > Burn itself out in a matter of hours
     
     Thermal runaway is a thing, and many fire responders keep cars completely submerged for weeks at a time. To actually control the situation alone can take 3 hours sure, but they burn for a lot longer than that.
     
     >Most of the energy is in the charge discharge cycle
     
     My only source here is a dude who works doing chemistry, not electro chemistry for a living. My bad potentially for not getting more sources, but its also 2am so idk
     
     >A honda civics fuel tank has more potential energy
     
     I will take the L here if chemistry bro is wrong. otherwise its within spitting distance
     
     I will happily say i was incorrect on some things here, but I'll need to discuss more with chemistry-bro to check on some things, since he's normally been very solid.
     
     I appreciate your corrections and I hope you don't think of me as being retarded
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     Scarlet :02_dance: (scarlet@bae.st)'s status on Friday, 27-Sep-2024 23:28:16 JST Scarlet :02_dance:

     in reply to
     @lunarised
     >but we know we can use batteries as an explosive
     No we can't. An explosion requires a chemical reaction so fast, that it can burn all the fuel in a fraction of a second. You simply can't get a battery to burn all of it's content instantly like that. You can get lithium-ion batteries to burn quite fast, but even the most violent reaction will still take a couple of seconds to completely consume a battery. This is why technically you never actually have a battery explosion. You can probably compare it closer to a welding blowfire torch fire, which you still don't want to happen in your pocket or hands. If something suddenly started a welding torch to go off in someone's pants, I understand why they'd feel the need to call it an explosion, but it technically isn't.
     
     >Sure an EV fire is destructive and can take WEEKs to put out
     No. An EV lithium-ion fire will burn itself out in a matter of hours at most, though less than an hour is more likely. So "weeks" clearly isn't true.
     If you somehow kept adding batteries to the fire, sure you can keep it going for weeks, if that's what you want.
     As for putting out a lithium-ion battery fire in the classical sense of the word, it's basically impossible. You can't use water, and it's too hot to cool down with something like foam or CO2 extinguishers. You might have success if you literally bury the source of the fire in an mountain of sand. But that's not exactly easy to do. This is why the current tactic to deal with EV fires is to let it burn itself out.
     
     >that energy can be utilized by a reaction quicker than a petrol cars explosion
     But still not even close to quick enough to create a proper explosion. Just one very hot fire.
     
     >which isnt including the other energy stored in a battery, which is often cited as 20-30x the amount the battery can hold for regular discharge
     I don't know where you got this idea, but it's complete BS. A lithium-ion battery is usually considered fully charged at ~4.2V, and discharged at ~3V (here you can see a bit more variability). But the energy left bellow that 3V is actually very low. I don't think you can get even 1x the amount of energy available during the normal charge-discharge cycle. Voltage isn't everything. Amperage is a lot more important here. And the amount of amps a battery can still output below 3V is mediocre.
     The majority of the energy in a battery IS the regular charge-discharge cycle. You can find charge curves for various battery chemistries around, every battery has a voltage underneath which the energy capacity it can hold drops exponentially fast. For example, for nickel rechargeables (and alkaline batteries), it's right below 1v.
     I've attached one example I found for lithium-ion, but you can search for yourself for similar graphs.
     So no, whatever battery you're thinking of isn't holding 1 ton of TNT in it. It's holding pretty much what is written on the label. And no, the energy inside an EV battery is DEFINITELY not more than the energy inside your Honda Civic fuel tank. It just has the potential to be released faster.
     OIP.jpeg
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 09-Oct-2024 18:55:04 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @lunarised >I will take the L here if chemistry bro is wrong. otherwise its within spitting distance
     The energy density of petrol is still much higher than batteries.