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   SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 20:45:51 JST SuperDicq

   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

   @fial@ihatebeinga.live @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @Makura@city17.makura.top For music it doesn't matter, because that is not a program, it's just an audio file.
   
   Also software doesn't have to be copyleft, it just has to be free. There are non-copyleft free software licenses.

   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:02:17 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to
     @SuperDicq @fial @Makura That said given the right-holders mafia on music, libre licensed music is something quite dear to me.
     
     Even though it's not exactly a copyright problem as if they can extort a school, it's not copyright, they have exceptions.
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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:14:50 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @fial@ihatebeinga.live @Makura@city17.makura.top Of course. I really appreciate artists who release their music under a free Creative Commons license of course. This is a good thing.
     
     But for music and other media it being free as in freedom is not non-negotiable like it is for software.

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:19:52 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @fial@ihatebeinga.live @Makura@city17.makura.top What makes media different from software is that with media you can just simply choose to ignore the copyright statement, especially in a private context.
     
     Software however, isn't free until you have the source code and the tools to compile it. You can't study how the software works, what it does or modify it without it..

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:25:14 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:

     @newt@stereophonic.space @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @fial@ihatebeinga.live If you truely believe "modifying binaries is not even that hard" then go manually rewrite the binary of your favorite video game for a different architecture. Or literally anything else that would be very trivial if you had the source code.

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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:25:15 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @SuperDicq @lanodan @fial yes, you can. You can totally study and modify binaries. It's not even that hard, all things considered. Especially compared to how asinine modern build systems are and that many projects are impossible to build from source, not due to malice but sheer conplexity.
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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:32:33 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:

     @newt@stereophonic.space @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @fial@ihatebeinga.live Still I don't think you can say "binary editing is easy because modern software development kinda sucks" Binary editing is still like multiple magnitudes less efficient than just having the source code for something.

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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:32:35 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @SuperDicq @lanodan @fial porting software to a different achitecture is not trivial in many cases even with source code. You can thank C programmers and their love for ugly hacks for this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:32:50 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to
     @SuperDicq @fial @Makura For me what makes proprietary licences disgusting is when they are tools/infrastructure or deal with personal data. And if there is accessibility/fitness concerns, like copyright-wise I think you ought to be able to tweak video games at will, after all you can do this with non-video games. (Meaning the players themselves enforce anti-cheating)
     
     None of that being specific about software, same logic applies to like farming equipment for example.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:40:36 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:

     @SuperDicq @newt @fial Plus there's a lot of things put in tarballs which do not pass as Source Code, either by the GPL definition (preferred form of the work for making modifications to it) or by the OSI definition:

     > The source code must be the preferred form in which a programmer would modify the program. Deliberately obfuscated source code is not allowed. Intermediate forms such as the output of a preprocessor or translator are not allowed.

     Which quite means that horrors like the autogenerated ./configure scripts from autotools aren't Source Code.

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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:43:03 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq It's not a skill issue, yes you technically can modify whatever file you have and achieve it, but you can't always do so *legally*, that's the whole point of license.
     
     If it would be just technicalities then it wouldn't be licences but training.
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:43:05 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @SuperDicq @lanodan @fial I can and I will say that editing binaries isn't hard, merely tiresome. And that your original statement "You can't study how the software works, what it does or modify it without [source code.." is wrong, because software has been both studied and modified without access to source code. It's literally a skill issue and nothing more.
     
     I agree though that access to source code makes things easier.
     SuperDicq repeated this.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:46:31 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @SuperDicq Trivial edits to binaries without the source code isn't that hard, although doing so is illegal (current proprietary OS's don't appear to directly report such illegal modifications to the government yet).
     
     A lot of the time you just want to change an output string or NOP out a function that implements digital handcuffs, which is a pain in the neck to do, but is possible.
     
     But, doing much more than that potentially requires thousands of hours of work, for something that would take a few dozen hours with the source code.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:54:18 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq Private modifications can only be legal when it's merely all-rights-reserved, but licences such as EULAs can restrict you that right, same thing for DRM.
     
     For France what you're likely referring to is interoperability, which I personally find easy to trigger, my systems being weird (and pretty much why I use proprietary software less and less, using a chroot/container for proprietary software isn't fun).
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 21:54:19 JST :suya:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq
     >but you can't always do so *legally*, that's the whole point of license.
     
     Yes, I can. And so do you, assuming you're still in France. You can't distribute the changes tho.
     
     But if I legally own a copy of software, I can do whatever the fuck I want with it within the confines of my computers. 'murricans are the only ones prohibited from this by the DMCA.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:07:11 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq Licences are contracts and they're definitely part of the justice system even without being laws.
     Same kind of thing as employment contracts.
     
     And while you could wonder about enforcement, I wouldn't really want to rely on that on a regular basis.
     To me it's kind of like taking country roads when drunk at 3am to avoid the cops, very unlikely to get caught, unless some stupid shit happens.
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:07:13 JST :suya:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq licenses can't restrict you. They aren't laws. Even laws can't restrict you as long as they aren't really enforced.
     
     Again, in many countries (no idea really about France) you can modify any software on your computer _regardless_ of asinine nosense in its license.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:15:35 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq That's literally murder, of course it's non-binding.
     
     Meanwhile for EULAs you'd have to look for ways to specially cancel the part you don't want.
     Plus DRMs are a legal backdoor so strong I don't think the interoperability exception even applies (after all DRMs would be entirely void otherwise).
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:15:36 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq licenses are contracts, but in no jurisdiction a license can have any priority. If a software license says you must sacrifice your firstborn to Moloch, will you?
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:20:19 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq Well I'd love to see you showcase that then, could make for nice jurisprudence.
     But until then I and many others won't, specially given how rotten the justice system is.
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:20:20 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq exactly. And why is it non-binding? Because your country's law takes precedence. Same with local modifications.
     
     Look, the truth is, most of the stuff people put into those liceses is barely enforceable or non-binding.
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:37:08 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:

     @newt@stereophonic.space @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @fial@ihatebeinga.live The chances of getting sued for "software piracy" in a personal and local scale is very low, but in a commercial setting the chance is very high.
     
     If I made a custom version of Windows and started selling copies of it my house would be bombed by Microsoft lawyers in 0.3 nanoseconds.

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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:37:09 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq if you think the justice system is rotten, then literally anything is enforceable, including human sacrifices as a price for software. You can't have it both ways.
     
     Software piracy (which includes modifying code duh) is very much alive and it's not that a lot of people get prosecuted. Your chances of being hit by a bus within the next decade are higher, probably.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 22:38:22 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq Except murder as price for software and all that within the law is quite implausible, while failing to declare that a part of a contract is void is all too plausible.
     
     And software piracy on the cracker side of things isn't a risk I'd want to take, sure it's barely prosecuted but I don't want to take that risk, specially when it comes to software from large corporations.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:05:14 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq As if any cracker is remembered.
     Heck wouldn't even be surprised that Pirate Bay founders are starting to be forgotten by most people.
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:05:15 JST :suya:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq
     >And software piracy on the cracker side of things isn't a risk I'd want to take, sure it's barely prosecuted but I don't want to take that risk, specially when it comes to software from large corporations.
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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:07:46 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:

     @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @newt@stereophonic.space @fial@ihatebeinga.live I'm not most people, but I will never forget the story of ThePirateBay.
     
     I also remember almost every cracker that I've had pirated games and software from at some point. Also especially because it usually came bundles with awesome demo software and tracker music that made it extra memorable.

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:09:50 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:

     @newt@stereophonic.space @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @fial@ihatebeinga.live I grew up throwing concrete slabs under passing trains to see if they would derail. You realize that is not a healthy and normal activity, right?

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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:09:52 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq
     >As if any cracker is remembered.
     
     Yes?
     
     Look, you and I clearly have different risk perceptions. You seem to consider a small (fraction of a percent) risk of getting caught for cracking software unacceptable. I grew up throwing concrete slabs under passing trains to see if they would derail. We clearly exist in entirely different mindsets and this argument won't really go anywhere.
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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:11:07 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:

     @newt@stereophonic.space @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @fial@ihatebeinga.live I can imagine why

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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:11:08 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @SuperDicq @lanodan @fial yeah. Train conductors didn't particularly like it either.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:12:38 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq Mindset?
     Merely trying to derail trains would definitely get me (and if I were still a kid, parents) into a fuckton of trouble.
     Effectively not the same world, probably should realize that.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:18:54 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq Because there's just no way you wouldn't, specially if you do it more than once.
     
     "Oh hey, I did mild attempts at domestic terrorism as a kid, for fun!"
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     :suya: (newt@stereophonic.space)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:18:56 JST :suya:

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq
     >Mindset?
     >Merely trying to derail trains would definitely get me (and if I were still a kid, parents) into a fuckton of trouble.
     
     See? That's your problem! You automatically assume you will get caught!
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 23:20:07 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:
     @newt @SuperDicq @fial At least I'd rather take a shit in front of the police station.
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     mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius: (mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 02:34:14 JST mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq @lanodan
     > licenses can't restrict you
     sign a piece of paper:
     nobody besides the people who signed/read it knows
     
     Sign a piece of digital paper:
     X amount of probes in the OS/software will know about it plus all the entities they share data to.
     
     > as long as they aren't really enforced.
     Except when they're enforced, which happens everyday.
     
     > you can modify any software
     Of course, anybody can hex edit anything 🤓
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius: (mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 02:34:30 JST mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @lanodan @fial @SuperDicq
     >And if there is accessibility/fitness concerns, like copyright-wise I think you ought to be able to tweak video games at will
     I'll add that people who are concerned about vg software is inane as they already protect their content with trademark.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius: (mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 02:35:01 JST mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq @lanodan
     Aside getting caught, what do you gain from this ? Some easy hormonal rush because you temporarily "dominated" random people ? Sounds like some schizos on imageboards would do instead of putting efforts in anything direct or even meaningful.
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     mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius: (mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 04:05:43 JST mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • :suya:
     @newt @fial @SuperDicq @lanodan
     > I can and I will say that editing binaries isn't hard, merely tiresome.
     Imagine having a computer, a tool that basically automates stuff then some people consider ok to legally and technically restricts you from automating something.
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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 04:07:57 JST SuperDicq

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • mangeurdenuage :gnu: :trisquel: :gondola_head: 🌿 :abeshinzo: :ignucius:

     @mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @fial@ihatebeinga.live Personally I don't even care if the assets of a video game (be it textures, models, sounds, etc.) were nonfree. Just make the actual code that runs the game free software, you still need to buy the assets to actually play the game so you're not losing out on sales as a game developer. Everybody wins.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.