Tim Chambers
@mmccue - new numbers, but ones that tell the same story we discussed on your podcast: on my server, we have about 1 moderator to 500 users. Here are the new numbers on how that dynamic plays out for major social platforms in the EU:
"X does have the worst ratio of moderation staff to users, at 1/60,249, with LinkedIn coming in second (1/41,652), then TikTok (1/22,586) and Meta (1/17,600)."
https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/x-has-significantly-fewer-moderation-staff/714650/
:mastodon: Ric Harvey 🇪🇺🌍💚
@tchambers @mmccue @rolle imho community moderation always wins out when building online groups. We will self moderate and it’ll be fairly balanced. Is not perfect but we are generally more invested in making this a better place.
Tim Chambers
Fediplomacy
@tchambers Thanks for sharing! Here is a back-of-the-envelope calculation for the whole Fediverse, using data from fedidb.org:
Assuming that Monthly Active Users (MAUs) are the relevant quantity, and assuming further that there is at least one admin or moderator per server, the ratio is (1 million) to (27 thousand) which is approximately 1/37.
Take that with a pinch of salt though, it is but a very crude estimate which averages over wildly differently-sized instances etc.
(EDIT: *May* data)
Tim Chambers
@hrefna @thisismissem @fediplomacy A fair point that it is only one data point, but it is the only data on moderation the big platforms have submitted to the EU to this degree.
And as a non-paid Moderator, I am sure with certainty that I do more work on this than I would if I were paid at a 9-5pm gig.
Hrefna (DHC)
Yes, this is an important distinction.
It should also be noted that this is not an apples-to-apples distinction:
* How many moderator _hours_ are being used? This is going to be largely homogenous between the major platforms, it is not homogenous for the fediverse.
* How many moderators are _paid_? This is going to be largely homogenous between major platforms, it is not homogenous for the fediverse
* How much _duplication of effort_ is there?
etc.
Emelia 👸🏻
@fediplomacy @tchambers I think you want the total number of accounts, not just MAUs..
So 15119615 / 27788 ~= 544 users per moderator.
Fediplomacy
@tchambers And if we look at the total Fediverse user count, not the MAUs?
There are about 10 million users according to fedidb.org, so we get a ratio of 1/370.
Tim Chambers
@hrefna @thisismissem @fediplomacy Also: I'd wager that most Mastodon admins know their server users better, and know the local community that their server focuses on better than say a moderator covering all of say, France, or the entire EU...
Emelia 👸🏻
@tchambers @hrefna @fediplomacy I've actually an issue open for creating a moderation statistics endpoint, to try to add transparency to moderation practices, which could help here.
Tim Chambers
@hrefna @thisismissem @fediplomacy
Did I get this right? Your argument to the indieweb.social example is that my situation may be uncommon of most Mastodon servers, and as evidence, that the 10 largest Mastodon servers may have significantly worse user-to-moderator ratios?
I think I also heard that my moderating experience and hours compared to paid mods may be unusual.
I want to consider the objections but first make sure I'm hearing them accurately.
How are "non-threads" relevant?
Hrefna (DHC)
With respect: you are dipping into wishful thinking and/or propaganda.
What do these things look like for the ten largest servers, which make up 80% of the non-threads userbase?
You may also spend more time and know your users better, but that is not a uniform value.
You can argue that there are many advantages to the way that the fediverse handles these things, but comparing with the raw numbers from the EU report is not how you do that.
Fediplomacy
@thisismissem @tchambers @hrefna Very cool! We have been discussing something like an "admin load meter" for the server status page in the team too.
We found it challenging to conceptualize it as a metric (akin to the usual CPU load thingy with averages for 1/5/15 minutes) that – looping back to the discussion in the thread above – "somehow" "correctly" conveys instance size, user base, number of posts, moderation queue length .... an interesting design question to work on.
Tim Chambers
@angdraug @hrefna @thisismissem @fediplomacy It is a good point that quality control of commercial mods can vary too. And that many on paid services are likely so overturned -- as the mod to user rates from the EU show.
Dmitry Borodaenko
@hrefna @tchambers @thisismissem @fediplomacy Another important reason there can't be an apples to apples comparison is that moderators at Facebook have almost zero discretion, they are required to comply with the letter of hundreds of pages of instructions, and their quota limits the time they can spend on a single moderation request to less than a minute.
This makes Fedi moderation more labor intensive and higher quality, but makes raw numbers comparison meaningless.
Compare the outcomes.
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