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regardless of the specifics of the civil war I am certain that apprehending people and forcing them to do backbreaking labor for you for the rest of their life without compensation or you will kill them is monstrously evil
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@feld trying to distinguish its awfulness even further than like classical world slavery that sometimes you could work your way out of.
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@sun compensation doesn't even matter. what good is payment if you're still a slave?
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@lauralt I don't believe anybody was in it for the altruism though.
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@sun
Slavery is an improvement for those that are bad at governing themselves.
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@feld @sun
image.png
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@lauralt Hypothetically even if that is true, the particular form that slavery took in the Americas was cruel and unjust. To some degree we are all in bondage to some system against our wishes but some forms are worse than others.
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@sun
I didn't say that the masters didn't also profit.
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@0 @lauralt American slavery was worse than slavery in the Roman empire (but not as bad as slavery in the tropical islands or South America)
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@sun @lauralt
It's not terribly hard to imagine life as a Viking or Roman captive/slave without terrible hardship and suffering, not that it was all nice, but certainly different.
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@sun
It was, they should never have been brought to America in the first place. My point still stands though.
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@SNEK @0 @lauralt okay I just mean that in many places you could sell yourself into and buy yourself out of slavery, rather than being a permanent condition as the result of being considered innately inferior. yeah not uniform though
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@sun @0 @lauralt not sold on this. Roman slavery included Gladiators
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@sun @lauralt
Or North Africa, or Africa.
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@lss I have seen these arguments, basically you cvan find accounts where slaves were not treated badly and you can find accounts where slaves were treated very badly.
> Slavery was the normal state of being for a large proportion of any population in history
slavery in the Americas was never necessary and this increases the moral culpability. I don't want to get into an extended debate about how that changes over time.
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@sun 1. It wasn't backbreaking, there was actually a living history thing where some farmers matched the output of the average slave manually picking cotton and they found out slaves didn't work any harder than a white farmer family in the modern day.
2. They were fed, clothed and got a ticket to the new world, whereas otherwise they'd've been slaves in Africa. We can tell because the supply of slaves was relatively inelastic for hopefully obvious reasons.
3. Slavery was the normal state of being for a large proportion of any population in history and the only reason you see it as monstrously evil is because you're looking at it through the lens of modern morality. The life of a slave wasn't all that bad.
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@SNEK @0 @lauralt I want to be careful. I am saying it was more cruel than some historic forms of slavery, not uniquely cruel, in fact I did mention that it was far worse in some places.
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@sun @0 @lauralt Sure the system was different and maybe we're comparing oranges and apples. I'm still not buying that American slavery was some sort of specially cruel evil malignant cancer in the history of humanity. I reject that premise because 1) it's the propaganda being shilled and 2) doesn't make sense the slaves wouldn't all leave en mass when given the chance once free if American slavery was the worst thing ever.
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@SNEK @0 @lauralt my post was just a subtoot of someone saying that abolitionists were the "original wokesters."
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@0 @SNEK @lauralt african and egyptian slaves were frequently castrated and worked to death immediately.
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@sun @SNEK @lauralt
Perhaps even the continent they came from, depending on how they ending up getting sold in the first place, they could have experienced.
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@ChristiJunior @lss I am absolutely not assigning culpability for slavery to present day people.
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@sun @lss >slavery in the Americas was never necessary and this increases the moral culpability
And if there's an afterlife, I'm sure that's highly relevant for the souls people who have been dead for hundreds of years. For modern-day Americans though, the most obvious consequence of slavery is that it ensured that descendants of American slaves ended up enjoying far higher living standards than they would have if their ancestors had remained in Africa.
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@SNEK @0 @lauralt no problem just saying I'm not taking a broader position other than trapping people and making them work for your profit is basically unjust.
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@sun @0 @lauralt ah, gotcha. Well I can't defend that position bc it's not mine and I don't know what they mean by that.
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@ChristiJunior @SNEK @0 @lauralt they were certainly extremists for their time.
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@sun @SNEK @0 @lauralt >someone saying that abolitionists were the "original wokesters."
I mean, a lot of if not most abolitionists were hardcore racists by Current Year standards, and usually religious zealots. Comparisons to anti-abortion activists and even extreme animal rights groups seem equally applicable.
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@SNEK @zemichi @0 @lauralt that is completely tangential to my point that it is always wrong
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@zemichi @0 @lauralt @sun I'm not saying slavery was good actually. I'm saying that I have a visceral instinct against naking American slavery worse than slavery elsewhere.
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@SNEK @0 @lauralt @sun
The "slavery was good actually" is a copium opinion because nobody has been in slavery as it was in today's time.
If we accept that some people will be lower than us then slavery is always an unfair practice. Why give the people that serve you the good shit?
"6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them."
:back_from_gab: ✝️ :jesus:
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@sun i do think most of libshits oppositions to slavery is a total virtue signal
People like hasan who want to import millions of dirt poor low IQ brown people so they can be his uber eats drivers and gardeners would definately have them as his slaves 200 years ago
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@Vidmastereon oh I completely agree.
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@SNEK @0 @sun
If it was anything like Greece, nationality mattered even when someone was a slave. Aristotle talks about how barbarian and native Greek slaves were treated differently.
Christmas Sun
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narcolepsy and alcoholism :flag:
0
????PARTIOT SNEK????
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Christi Junior
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VidMasterEon
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