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   jade (leftpaddotpy@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:05:11 JST jade

   @ariadne @dysfun it also replaced ... CORBA. and I don't think anyone missed CORBA.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:05:09 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @leftpaddotpy @ariadne @dysfun There is really a clash of two *philosophies* here:

     One that believes software systems should be tightly coupled with every piece of software interacting with the events and data of one another, mediated through object oriented abstractions.

     And one that believes software should be decoupled, staying out of each other's way and exchanging data and reacting to events only through standard data formats and system interfaces.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:05:10 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @leftpaddotpy @ariadne @dysfun And it was all modelled on COM by folks who thought Windows was doing things that made sense...

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:06:02 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @leftpaddotpy Um, you're reading some weird ideas you had in your head into what I said...?

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     jade (leftpaddotpy@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:06:03 JST jade

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @dalias uhhhhh

     > software should be decoupled, staying out of each other's way and exchanging data and reacting to events only through standard data formats and system interfaces.

     "standard data formats". do you mean "text", for which you have a "broken handrolled C parser full of CVEs" because it's not actually structured *or* standard? or is there some magical format I have forgot about?

     dbus is a standard data format. the systemd-standardized interfaces are a standard, structured format.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:06:58 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @leftpaddotpy What I mean by "standard data formats" vs tightly coupled applications goes back to the early Windows idea of "inserting a paintbrush object" into your Word document rather than "inserting an image file in BMP format". Or the early Mac idea of resource forks identifying an "owning application" for a file rather than the data format of the file.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:06:59 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @leftpaddotpy The dbus protocol framing/transport is a "standardized data format". The addresses you interact with over it are *explicitly named for application software* that you're communicating with. And forget about whether it's standard or not, it's not even a data format. It's a command channel.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:11:02 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Petr Menšík :fedora:

     @pemensik @leftpaddotpy Nobody actually wants resolv.conf to get rewritten based on what network they connect to, with a garbage ns serving fake results with ads injected. They want it statically pointed at 127.0.0.1, 8.8.8.8, or something they trust. That something *should* be on 127.0.0.1, with full dnssec validation & efficient upstream querying, which systemd kinda tried to do, but botched...

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     Petr Menšík :fedora: (pemensik@fosstodon.org)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:11:05 JST Petr Menšík :fedora:

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @leftpaddotpy @dalias oh, systemd-resolved handling of /etc/resolv.conf is great example how to do it wrong way. Yes, there was maybe resolvconf only, hackish command. But because no other service claimed to be best #DNS cache everyone should use. I am quite confident resolved is broken. It supports only itself, unlike other solutions. Okay, it has decent dbus API. But also unfixed issues. Systemd has excellent integration skills, but fails to export it for use by 3rd party services.

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     jade (leftpaddotpy@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:11:06 JST jade

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @dalias every time I see people accusing systemd of not using the standard APIs, the so-called standard APIs in question did not exist before, and the functionality was, prior to systemd, achieved by the client software mutating things in such a way that assumes they were the only possible client (e.g. /etc/resolv.conf with VPN software, vs under systemd-resolved)

     I simply do not understand your argument.

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     Petr Menšík :fedora: (pemensik@fosstodon.org)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:12:01 JST Petr Menšík :fedora:

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @dalias @leftpaddotpy that depends. If systemd is preventing some features like dnssec or single label queries, then I want working resolvers instead. Statically configured servers won't know site-specific domains. Sure, you want to override DNS servers network has provided *sometime*. But you would want privacy VPN on such networks anyway, if you need to use that network at all. I get broken experience even on trusted networks with resolved.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:12:01 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Petr Menšík :fedora:

     @pemensik @leftpaddotpy VPN UX on Linux is just messed up. We now have the tools to do it right (user+net namespaces with their own localhost & own ns running on it with no access to outside-vpn network), but are doing it still with fragile hacks messing up global system network config. 🤦

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:12:56 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Petr Menšík :fedora:

     @pemensik @leftpaddotpy I was speaking more with sn assumption of a privacy providing VPN where you don't want any traffic to leak. But a site-enabling VPN also makes sense to scope only to processes meant to have access. A compromised nobody account shouldn't have access to VPN your user account has access to.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Petr Menšík :fedora: (pemensik@fosstodon.org)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 16:12:57 JST Petr Menšík :fedora:

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @dalias @leftpaddotpy I am not sure, why would you want to lock a process into separate namespace with a VPN. In most cases I *want* site-enabling VPN to modify *global* system configuration. I just want to choose which parts this VPN can provide, for example limiting it to only selected domains. It would be nice to have simpler ways to bind a service to just one network interface, but I don't need it often.

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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Thursday, 07-Mar-2024 01:25:19 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @dalias
     You just made me underatand why I hate Smalltalk. Thank you.

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