DrALJONES
"Brazil’s Lula compares Netanyahu to Hitler: How Fascist is Israel’s War on Palestinians?"
While Netanyahu’s policies are not like those of Nazi Germany if we consider absolute numbers & the scale of killing...
"Lula is not completely in error if we consider more qualitative aspects of history & look to European fascism as a whole and not just the German National Socialists (who were peculiar in many ways)."
https://www.juancole.com/2024/02/compares-netanyahu-palestinians.html
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
#WarInGaza #Palestine #History
(1/n)
"#Lula is not completely in error if we consider more qualitative aspects of history & look to European fascism as a whole and not just the German National Socialists (who were peculiar in many ways)."
Agreed.
#Hitler, on the other hand, stands for the *systematic* destruction of a people on an industrial level including its culture. Even, #Putler, as I, too, have started calling him, falls a bit short by this measure.
#Hitler..
DrALJONES
Yes, agree. And the author does too. He separates those different elements.
Miro Collas
@DrALJONES I'd add, the PA can be compared to the Judenrat.
That aside, Lula's comment, as he said it, was a bit extreme. But some comparison's are valid, I think.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
#WarInGaza #Palestine #History
(2/n)
...IMHO, can only be compared to very few people in recent history. Among them are only #JosephStalin, #MaoZedong, and possibly #KingLeopoldII, as well as #Cambodia's #PolPot.
Many years ago, the late German Chancellor Dr. #HelmutKohl hat a PR disaster when he compared a #Sowjet minister to the infamous #Nazi Propaganda Minister, #JosrphGoebbels.
Thus, #Lula's #Hitler comparison is very much out of...
https://allthatsinteresting.com/who-killed-the-most-people-in-history
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
#WarInGaza #Palestine #History
(3/3)
...place, from a valid historical point of view.
More importantly, it indirectly "normalizes" #Hitler's crimes against humanity *by diminishing them, relatively speaking.*
Even if the #Netanyahu Government really did plan the mass flight of the #Palestinians and even their eventual resettlement in #Africa, it simply would still be (fortunately) way below the atrocities committed by the big slayers of the Modern Age.
//
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
PS:
And yes, I am aware that at least 50% of the ca. 6mn. #Jews could have been rescued, had the #Isolationists and the #US #Nazi party, #AmericaFirst, not highjacked the #StateDepartment and lied to #FDR about the real situation in #Europe.--Or if other nations had accepted more refugees in the beginning. Originally, the #Hitler Regime would have been content with a resettlement.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
I beg to disagree.
Literally, it means the killing of a "gens", more broadly, a people.
The #UN has defined it as:
"Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed 👉with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,👈 as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
...to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Now, whether "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
...whole or in part;" will apply, depends on what happens on 03/10/23. If the refugees have no (real) escape route and a great numer are "sqeezed" to death, being cornered I'd see a serious reason to charge the #Netanyahu Government with #genocide.
Digression:
Just by #kidnapping #Ukrainian children, the #Russian regime really IS committing #genocide.
In my view, IF #Palestinians were not to be allowed back into #Gaza en...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
...real soon, I'd argue that the #Netanyahu regime COULD be charged with #EthnicCleansing:
"...As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian...
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
....law committed in the territory of the former #Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… 👉rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area.👈" In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… 👉a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
...violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”👈
This could constitute the following crimes:
"The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute 👉crimes against humanity👈 and can be assimilated to specific 👉war crimes.👈 Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”
I agree,...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
...though, that the legal definition should have been codified ages ago to be more unambiguous.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml
//
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@fabiocosta0305
You are interpreting a racial bias that simple isn't there in the article:
Both, #Hitler and #Stalin would be "White"--an invention of early 20th century US right-wingers.
Hitler was #Austrian by birth , Stalin #Georgian.
Being from eastern #Georgia (Gori) you could argue, that he was Asian, however, as Georgia belonged to the #RussianEmpire at that time, this distinction would be anachronistic, and thus irrelevant, in my view.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gori,_Georgia
Fábio Costa 🐇🕐🎩☕
@HistoPol @DrALJONES @Miro_Collas didn't saw King Leopold II pic on this!
Oh, wait... White, European... He's not a genocide, but a freedom fighter
Miro Collas
Well, numerous legal scholars have defined Israel's current actions as genocide. Nor being a lawyer, I'm not in a position to debate it either way. :-)
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@Miro_Collas
I prefer waiting for the UN tribunals at the #ICC for similar reasons. This is highly technical.
I've just read this now, and I agree:
"The court said "at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza 👉appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the [Genocide] Convention👈".[21]"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_v._Israel_(Genocide_Convention)
I can see stronger evidence for the #WarCrimes charge:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigation_in_Palestine
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@Miro_Collas
Oh, I agree very much with that statement.
My gut feeling about #Gaza, legally speaking, is "very uneasy."
However, only (?) countries following the UK tradition of case law rely so heavily on "pararallels" aka "precedence."
Other jurisdictions operate quite differently (the laws, supported by court decisions.)
Even extremely similar cases might be decided quite differently (e.g. tax law.)
To make inferences would be treading on thin ice.
Miro Collas
Valid points - yet I do think there are some parallels, even if the overall comparison fails.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@Miro_Collas
I was solely referring to this post of yours where you talk about numerous "scholars" and "genocide."
I had assumed you were talking about scholars of international (criminal) law, was I mistaken in that assumption?
Miro Collas
OK except that thread wasn't about law and legal definitions. It was rather whether comparisons could be made - on any level.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@Miro_Collas
Ah, sorry, my app is not very good at threading.
I night move the post later on then.
Miro Collas
@HistoPol @DrALJONES I did say that - but it was in a different and separate conversation. We have been chatting in two threads. :-)
Miro Collas
@HistoPol
No worries, all good. :-)
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
Ok.
We know; others might enjoy reading the other thread, too.
Bilal Barakat 🍉
@HistoPol @DrALJONES @Miro_Collas So Russians kidnapping Ukrainian children “really is genocide” but Israeli snipers killing Palestinian children for sport is not, got it.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@bifouba
This is a slippery slope, as discussed.
It would, in my non-professional view, be cold-blooded 1st degree murder and quite likely constitute a war crime. For it to be considered "genocide," it would need to happen methodolically on a significantly massive scale. Otherwise, the "gens" part of the word would not be fulfilled.
The soldiers should be tried
Note:
I have not seen reports of this happening from reliable sources, so this was theoretically speaking.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@bifouba
That insult earns you an immediate block.
Too bad that you just want to state your opinion.
"Compared to that, you're just some totally unqualified rando making up the definition as he goes along and fabricating legal criteria out of thin air. Don't bother replying, I'm muting both you and this thread as a waste of time."
Bilal Barakat 🍉
@HistoPol @DrALJONES @Miro_Collas The point is the obvious contradiction implied by your position, namely that doing something less bad (abduction instead of killing) somehow adds up to something worse. If you don't accept live video capture or testimony from foreign doctors as reliable, that's on you.
Also, your basic premise is false. First of all, the scale is very much sufficient. Killing going on 2% of the population directly is a significant part by any comparison to “legitimate war”, and moreover, a continuation of CURRENT CONDITIONS leads to a trajectory of several hundreds of thousands dead from starvation and disease. As you already conceded, creating those conditions by itself is sufficient to meet the definition of genocide. In any case, there is absolutely no "minimum number" of deaths required by the genocide definition. That is simply not a criterion. So much so that in their intervention to the ICJ in the Myanmar case, Germany, the UK, and friends have urged to the court to take the position that genocide can occur even absent ANY direct deaths.
You're also vastly overstating the need for it to be "systematic". There is literally no such criterion stated in the convention. Sure, if you send out killer squads with lists of named members of the group to kill that makes it easy to establish intent, but it's not a necessary part of the definition. Just because the killing is arbitrary and haphazard does not in any way stand in the way of it constituting genocide. You are simply making up conditions out of thin air. And then you don't even apply your fantasy criteria consistently. Leopold II didn't give a fuck how many millions of Africans died to make him rich, but where was his GOAL to "systematically exterminate" them?
Moreover, you conflate the question of whether it IS genocide with whether it can be PROVEN to be genocide, by saying you'll only accept that it is if the court rules so, which it only will if it is proven. This allows you to just casually dismiss all other expert assessment as "some scholars”. I don't know if you read the charge against Biden for complicity in the US court. It was supported by William Shabas, former President of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, who literally wrote the book on the topic, “Genocide in International Law”. Moreover, who adopts a conservative position and doesn't consider the Holodomor to have constituted genocide in a strict legal sense, for instance. Yet he fully endorsed the view that Israel's actions in Gaza are prima facie genocidal, while fully aware of the numbers and scale.
Compared to that you're just some totally unqualified rando making up the definition as he goes along and fabricating legal criteria out of thin air. Don't bother replying, I'm muting both you and this thread as a waste of time.
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