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   Polychrome :blabcat: (polychrome@poly.cybre.city)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 11:40:39 JST Polychrome :blabcat:
   I don't like what #StarTrek: Strange New Worlds did with the Gorn because they've made them an enemy that was objectively evil in a world where no culture or specie is objectively evil.
   • Embed this notice
     Polychrome :blabcat: (polychrome@poly.cybre.city)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 11:46:04 JST Polychrome :blabcat:

     in reply to

     • Mike McCaffrey

     @mikemccaffrey the borg are evil from our perspective, but they themselves believe that they are doing good and are ‘helping’ everyone upgrade to a better state of being and those who decline are children who do not understand.

     SNW Gorn do not believe they’re doing good. All life is meat for them to consume and use as egg sacks, while delighting in their screams of horror and pain.

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     Mike McCaffrey (mikemccaffrey@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 11:46:05 JST Mike McCaffrey

     in reply to

     @Polychrome I'd argue that the Borg are objectively evil (at least when still attached to the collective), but that is a good point.

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     Polychrome :blabcat: (polychrome@poly.cybre.city)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 11:50:00 JST Polychrome :blabcat:

     in reply to

     • Mike McCaffrey
     @mikemccaffrey it's extra weird for me because when Trek presents something that's terrifying and evil it either ended up being a misunderstanding (e.g. The Devil in the Dark) or atleast served a philosophical question / debate (Skin of Evil).
     
     In SNW the Gorn are just there for violence and terror with no intelligent conclusion. That's not Trek.
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     Mike McCaffrey (mikemccaffrey@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 11:50:01 JST Mike McCaffrey

     in reply to

     @Polychrome There are quite a few humans who view the consumption of meat as an inherently good thing to be doing.

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     Polychrome :blabcat: (polychrome@poly.cybre.city)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 11:55:44 JST Polychrome :blabcat:

     in reply to

     • Mike McCaffrey
     @mikemccaffrey the difference that makes SNW Gorn objectively evil compared to meat eating humans is that the Gorn are physiologically obligated to hunt, rape, and kill sentient life.
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     Dipper (lad_hallo@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 12:02:22 JST Dipper

     in reply to

     @Polychrome I agree and have criticized that in a toot before...I otherwise enjoyed many aspects of the show. Wondering as its been a while since I watched, hasn't "Discovery" done that with Klingons as well though? Or at least almost?

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     Polychrome :blabcat: (polychrome@poly.cybre.city)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 12:02:22 JST Polychrome :blabcat:

     in reply to

     • Dipper
     @LaD_Hallo I'm gonna get flamed for this but I have serious issues considering Discovery as a Trek show as its ethical principles and story guidelines are too different.
     
     SNW Gorn bothers me because I actually like SNW is being 'proper Trek' so I actually care about this misstep.
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     Dipper (lad_hallo@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 12:12:48 JST Dipper

     in reply to

     @Polychrome Certainly not by me because also here I fully agree - SNW is the first real Star Trek to me since Enterprise.

     Polychrome :blabcat: likes this.
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     Polychrome :blabcat: (polychrome@poly.cybre.city)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 12:33:00 JST Polychrome :blabcat:

     in reply to

     • Mike McCaffrey
     • David Benfell, Ph.D. (he/him/his)

     @benfell @mikemccaffrey there's several arguements here so I'll go over them:

     • TOS presented the Gorn attack as a reaction to the Federation building a military outpost in their territory. In effect, the TOS Gorn were acting perfectly reasonably in self defense against Federation settlers.
     • Once assimilated, Borg drones form a part of a greater mind. They are no longer themselves, their bodies part of a massive cosmic spanning body. In that effect the Borg do not see the assimilated as soldiers, they are merely fingers to be used. It is horrifying to us who see bodies as a thing of personal autonomy, but not to a hive-mind entity as the Borg.
     • This comparison of SNW Gorn with the Borg flattens their neuance. Consider the difference: The first is a rapist who selects someone, assaults them, violates their consent, and takes what they want. The other is a mad dentist. He will kidnap and traumatize you with the intent to make your dental hygine better, regardless of whether you want to or not. They see the cost to you (trauma, mental health) as insignificant compared to the greater good of having good teeth. But they are doing it to improve you, as horrible and misguided as it is.
       There is an important difference.
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     David Benfell, Ph.D. (he/him/his) (benfell@infosec.exchange)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 12:33:01 JST David Benfell, Ph.D. (he/him/his)

     in reply to

     • Mike McCaffrey

     @mikemccaffrey @Polychrome I agree that's a good point.

     On the second part of this, as a vegan, I sense an inconsistency.

     We say the Gorn (who were portrayed every bit as harshly in the original series) are "objectively evil" for viewing other life as food and incubators. Good. This is fine.

     But the reason this is evil is that we view this other life as sentient and entitled to autonomy. The Borg would be evil for the same reason: They assimilate without consent, depriving assimulants of autonomy. Furthermore, these assimulants are utterly expendable, exploited as soldiers.

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     Polychrome :blabcat: (polychrome@poly.cybre.city)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 12:35:46 JST Polychrome :blabcat:

     in reply to

     • Mike McCaffrey
     • David Benfell, Ph.D. (he/him/his)
     @benfell @mikemccaffrey SNW made sure to clarify in multiple incidents that the Gorn delight in the fear and pain of their prey and make sure to prolong the suffering for their own enjoyment.
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     David Benfell, Ph.D. (he/him/his) (benfell@infosec.exchange)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 12:35:47 JST David Benfell, Ph.D. (he/him/his)

     in reply to

     • Mike McCaffrey

     @Polychrome @mikemccaffrey If the Gorn are indeed obligate carnivores, then we cannot fault them for it. The critique applies to humans as omnivores with the ability to choose.

     In this, it is evil because we are moral agents who have chosen evil. If the Gorn lack this choice, we would not understand them as choosing and they are therefore blameless.

     All that said, I was not clear that the Gorn are obligate carnivores. Is that so?