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  1. Embed this notice
    John Carlos Baez (johncarlosbaez@mathstodon.xyz)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 06:12:41 JST John Carlos Baez John Carlos Baez
    • Karthik Srinivasan

    I don't post much about serious math here anymore. But here's a little piece of category theory connected to music. I dreamt this up thanks to a comment from @skarthik.

    In Carnatic music there are 72 seven-note scales called 'Melakarta ragas'. By cyclically permuting the notes of a Melakarta raga you sometimes get another Melakarta raga. This process is called 'graha bhedam':

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graha_bhedam

    This would give an action of the group ℤ/7 on the set of Melakarta ragas... except sometimes when you cyclically permute the notes of a Melakarta raga you 𝑑𝑜𝑛'𝑡 get another Melakarta raga, since there are constraints on which 7-note scales count as Melakarta ragas. So we only have some sort of partially defined group action. Let's make up a definition:

    Let's say a 'partial group action' of a group 𝐺 on a set 𝑋 is a partially defined map

    𝐺×𝑋→𝑋
    (𝑔,𝑥)↦ 𝑔𝑥

    such that:

    1. for all 𝑥∈𝑋, 1𝑥 is defined and equal to 𝑥.
    2. If one of (𝑔ℎ)𝑥 and 𝑔(ℎ𝑥) are defined, then so is the other, and they are equal.

    Now the interesting thing is that any partial group action gives a groupoid where

    • the objects are elements of 𝑋
    • a morphism 𝑔:𝑥→𝑦 is an element 𝑔∈𝐺 with 𝑔𝑥 = 𝑦
    • the composite of morphisms 𝑔 and ℎ is their product in the group 𝐺.

    This construction is famous for ordinary group actions:

    https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/action+groupoid

    but it works fine for partial group actions!

    So, there's a groupoid of Melakarta ragas. The Wikipedia article shows that Carnatic music theory is concerned with the connected components of this groupoid: that is, bunches of Melakarta ragas related to each other by graha bhedam.

    In conversation Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 06:12:41 JST from mathstodon.xyz permalink
    • Embed this notice
      phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 06:22:47 JST phiofx phiofx
      in reply to
      • Karthik Srinivasan

      @johncarlosbaez @skarthik do these constraints reflect some generic feature of our neural network topology? While their precise nature varies from culture to culture, there are always *some*.

      In conversation Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 06:22:47 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 07:56:28 JST phiofx phiofx
      in reply to
      • Karthik Srinivasan

      @skarthik

      TIL the word #tonotopy. Love the sound of it :-)

      It would be cool if the mathematical group structure of conceptual models of scales reflects some physical crystal-like symmetry of these chains of neurons.

      @johncarlosbaez

      In conversation Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 07:56:28 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Karthik Srinivasan (skarthik@neuromatch.social)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 07:56:29 JST Karthik Srinivasan Karthik Srinivasan
      in reply to
      • phiofx

      @phiofx @johncarlosbaez

      Hard to say, let's just say there might be some "universals" to the notes that make up an octave/scale to our tonotopic map, and their relationshiip to what we "perceive" as dissonant/consonant intervals.

      In conversation Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 07:56:29 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      John Carlos Baez (johncarlosbaez@mathstodon.xyz)'s status on Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 19:09:34 JST John Carlos Baez John Carlos Baez
      in reply to
      • Karthik Srinivasan
      • phiofx

      @phiofx - "do these constraints reflect some generic feature of our neural network topology?"

      I don't think it's our neural network topology: I think the common features of music between culture traces its way back to the math of vibrations, overtones and resonance. The octave and perfect fifth having the simplest frequency ratios, namely 2 and 3/2, gives them special physical properties. The major third, with frequency 5/4, is also important.

      It surprised me at first how similar western music is, in its basics, to Carnatic and Hindustani music. All of them prominently feature 7-tone scales contained in the 12-tone chromatic scale, and the favorite 7-tone scale is always the one that contains a frequency, the frequencies 3/2 and 2/3 times that, and the frequencies 1, 5/4 and 3/2 times all those. This forms 3 "triads" shown below in the key of C in western music notation.

      @skarthik

      In conversation Tuesday, 16-Jan-2024 19:09:34 JST permalink

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