Emo Vulcan
@thomasfuchs do schools pay copyright for the knowledge they transfer to their students?
Imagine this: parents drop their kids to a library telling them to "read everything". The kids grow up to highly paid professionals thanks to this....
Would every single author from the books in that library be entitled to compensation from the kids because their success is based on the knowledge from these books?
DNA schedule
@thomasfuchs not a fan of OpenAI at all, but neither do I buy this classic copyright maximalist argument. A stolen car is unavailable to the owner; stolen texts or images used to train models are no less available, they're "non-rivalrous."
Many business models are impossible under copyright maximalism, including much of art, if you believe the argument Kirby Ferguson makes in "Everything is a Remix."
Robbie Coleman :verified:
@thomasfuchs
You and @molly0xfff both nailed this...
https://hachyderm.io/@molly0xfff/111721704587608026
kurtseifried (he/him)
@thomasfuchs Serious question: how do we support smaller companies or individuals training LLM's (e.g. Open Source LLMs) if we have strict copyright enforcement and licensing? There are precious few up-to-date training data sets that are licensed under an Open Source license or Public Domain.
Enforcing copyright and licensing for training data will 100% make training larger or up-to-date LLMs impossible for anyone without lawyers and tens of millions of dollars. I don't think that's a good long-term outcome.
kurtseifried (he/him)
@thomasfuchs First off.. who says this is "stealing"? Copyright fair use is a thing.
Also in Japan it's not stealing:
“regardless of whether it is for non-profit or commercial purposes, whether it is an act other than reproduction, or whether it is content obtained from illegal sites or otherwise.”
https://www.biia.com/japan-goes-all-in-copyright-doesnt-apply-to-ai-training/
Kevin Karhan :verified:
@thomasfuchs @tante@tante.cc @tante@tldr.nettime.org *Arbiter Voice* "Were it so easy..."
By that logic every wageworker and capital investor would be lifelong debt peons to schoolbook and textbook authors because they learned and applied the contents of said copyrighted works!
But that's not how any of this works - and we can all be glad for it, because otherwise the #Copyrightmafia would extort everyone as their #racketeering would be the norm, not an opt-in!
https://felixreda.eu/2021/07/github-copilot-is-not-infringing-your-copyright/
Charles ✡️ H
@thomasfuchs I mean they're right that the copyright system is in a crisis of overreach, but recent works by living authors are not part of that problem.
Jacob Atzen
@thomasfuchs Did they just openly state that their entire business model is illegal?
David Nash
@jacobat @thomasfuchs These companies claim that their use of copyrighted material is just fine -- that it falls under the "fair use" exemption in US law.
This *may* be true (in terms of being found in court to qualify as such), but if so, the law needs a refresh. "Fair use" was historically a way to allow a person or organization to take a *small amount* of copyrighted material to comment on it, or cite it in research, or make a parody or other highly-legally-protected form of derivative work. It has not, up until now, been invoked on a scale of "essentially all copyrighted works available publicly on the Internet".
Delric
@thomasfuchs “I mean, it’s not like we’re going to *pay* for this!”
FranksAgain
@thomasfuchs yes it is simple theft for personal gain. There are plenty of us being chased for AI in fields which don’t have huge convenient free datasets who are wrestling with this, and finding ways to solve it without stealing IP.
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