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   Kavah (kavah@todon.eu)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 18:59:31 JST Kavah

   • r/Wholesomememes

   @wholesomememes it's cultural associations that are being described here, not the colors. For example, water is neither blue nor cool but we visualize it this way. People who start painting without much practice start giving water a blue color, leaves green etc. The result is awful. I assume blind ppl learning to paint good paintings learn color in a different way

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     Albert ARIBAUD ✎ (aaribaud@mastodon.art)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 18:59:27 JST Albert ARIBAUD ✎

     in reply to

     • r/Wholesomememes

     @Kavah @wholesomememes

     Aren't colors cultural associations?

     Not two of us humans have the same perception of colors. Some of us can discern more shades than others, some less.

     We learn color names from others calling these names to refer to things. And we give these names by referring to things. Color names are cultural.

     We use color systems to refer to colors: RGB, sRGB, CMYK, Pantone, each useful for given purposes in a given community.

     Colors *are* cultural associations.

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     Albert ARIBAUD ✎ (aaribaud@mastodon.art)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 22:52:29 JST Albert ARIBAUD ✎

     in reply to

     • r/Wholesomememes

     @Kavah @wholesomememes

     Color( name)s *are* defined by association -- with things that bear that color -- to the point that in French there's a color-name grammar rule which applies differently depending on whether the color name has gained "autonomy" with respect to the thing name or not.

     But maybe by "association" you meant synaesthesia because another sense than sight is involved? If so then how else do you propose to explain colors to a *blind* person than through synaesthesia? [1/2]

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     Kavah (kavah@todon.eu)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 22:52:30 JST Kavah

     in reply to

     • Albert ARIBAUD ✎
     • r/Wholesomememes

     @aaribaud @wholesomememes I every word is cultural, fair point. but its meanings are mostly not derived from associations like "feels warm" etc. So, cultural yes, associations not so much

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     Albert ARIBAUD ✎ (aaribaud@mastodon.art)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 22:57:12 JST Albert ARIBAUD ✎

     in reply to

     • r/Wholesomememes

     @Kavah @wholesomememes

     And even among sighted people, linking colors to things like heat or cold is quite common -- artists speak of warm or cold colors (or maybe hues; artists please, forgive me).

     One could argue it's wavelength-related, though, but "hot" and "cold" do not define wavelength spectrums.

     Colors can also be hard or soft, something not related to the wavelength at all, so again an association, with touch this time -- obviously not the touch of the pigment or finished work. [2/2]

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     Albert ARIBAUD ✎ (aaribaud@mastodon.art)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 23:01:11 JST Albert ARIBAUD ✎

     in reply to

     • r/Wholesomememes

     @Kavah @wholesomememes

     [3/2, I know]

     And I bet these associations *are* cultural, that is, the same "objective" color will not be associated to the same things in different parts of the world (if only because of different environments, so different "color palettes").

     (done now, I promise)

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     Albert ARIBAUD ✎ (aaribaud@mastodon.art)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 23:25:07 JST Albert ARIBAUD ✎

     in reply to

     @Kavah

     I'm not sure that "not talking to blind people in terms of color" can work, if only because sighted people do not consciously realize how often their speech is sight-related.

     Since sighted people experience color as a non-trivial mix of visual *and other sensory* stimuli, we might as well rely on these other senses to convey color to blind people.

     Will a blind person know what turquoise is as you know it? No.

     But then, neither do I.

     And why would we need to see it all the same way?

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     Kavah (kavah@todon.eu)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 23:25:09 JST Kavah

     in reply to

     • Albert ARIBAUD ✎

     @aaribaud yeah, isn't it interesting? So on the one hand, colors have a kind of objective neurological basis, if you can call it that. On the other, every color system influences how you perceive color. So if artists call a color warm or cold, you just might say no.

     So I did mean synaesthesia, yes. But how to describe color to blind ppl? I dunno, maybe not at all. Of course it is valid to make a poem out of associations and reactions but you should tell them it's not actually what colors are like. I.e. blue can also feel warm or water can be green. Then they get confused, but anyway.

     I guess you could also name many things that commonly have certain colors in certain light situations. This way they wouldn't understand the color, but they could maybe use this knowledge, i.e. for painting.