Subjacent Banana
Suggestion: Whenever someone tries the "Reasonable" game on you, demand they change the word to "effective."
"What are reasonable solutions to climate change?"
No, "What are *effective* solutions to climate change?"
"What are reasonable Covid precautions?"
No, "What are *effective* Covid precautions?"
We don't talk about "reasonable" ways to escape from a great white shark or avoid a gasoline tanker that has overturned.
phiofx
@jackofalltrades @passenger @TomSwirly @largess @subjacentish the hopeful scenario that does not depend on any material amount of societal IQ is that renewables will win on price alone.
Passenger
@TomSwirly @jackofalltrades @largess @subjacentish
Thanks Tom! That was really interesting.
We're seeing pedestrianisation happen right now in Paris and there's a similar political fight about it. Over there, there's a noticeable divide between people who live in urbanised areas, versus those who moved out to the low-rise surrounding communities and want to drive in. I'm not Parisien but I have comrades who are, and hearing about it from them is very interesting.
Jack of all trades
@passenger @TomSwirly @largess @subjacentish
Thank you Tom, this was a great summary!
Environmental action is much more effective when paired with some other non-environmental issues (like children's health in this case).
The car ownership being unaffected by this is quite distressing though. It's my fear the same thing will happen with #renewables: they will find their niche in certain places, but will not replace fossil fuels altogether.
Tom Ritchford
@passenger @jackofalltrades @largess @subjacentish
Unfortunately, the Dutch love their capitalism. Car ownership is high. People do almost always take their kids to school on bikes, it's amazing to watch, but for trips over 1km, there is a lot of car usage. Public transportation is still good, but pandemic-era cuts have not entirely been lifted. Affluent people will drive, even if it's less convenient.
As a cyclist, you feel very well taken care of but cars have not been replaced.
/thread
Tom Ritchford
@passenger @jackofalltrades @largess @subjacentish And the paving of the canals met a not-entirely-peaceful opposition of immigrants and leftists, and again the very progressive government of the time recanted.
A municipality (Gemeente) here is run by a lot of competent, practical, educated people who realistically want to improve life, and so they are always putting their fingers on the scale for bikes - you can bike everywhere, park everywhere.
3/
Tom Ritchford
@passenger @jackofalltrades @largess @subjacentish Let me preface this by saying that I'm not really an environmentalist but someone with some science background who's interested in the environment and moved to the Netherlands in 2016.
Bikes were always fairly popular in the Netherlands before cars because it's so flat.
When cars arrived, it seems the same sort of story played out in the US and the Netherlands - everyone loved them.
1/
Tom Ritchford
@passenger @jackofalltrades @largess @subjacentish When kids playing in the street started to get killed, the parents were portrayed as being at fault.
Amsterdam even started to pave over its canals in anticipation of a new motorized era!
But a movement called "Stop de Kindermoord" (Stop the child murder) managed to get the attention of both the citizens and the very progressive government at the time, by strong slogans and iconography.
2/
Jack of all trades
That sounds like a great case study then.
If the majority of the population was against these changes whose idea was it to enact them, and how they were able to stay in power long enough for these changes to stick (i.e. not be rolled back by the next government)?
How successful was this switch to a modern bicycle paradise? Is urban car ownership in the Netherlands much lower than in other countries?
Passenger
@jackofalltrades @largess @subjacentish
Tagging in @TomSwirly because a Dutch environmentalist would be better at discussing the details than I can be.
Bargearse
@jackofalltrades
Which is why it all comes back to voters (at least in democracies).
Nothing can change until they do, if any Government states it needs to crash the economy (I'd like to see it done with some equity in mind, taking from the rich and the lives of the poor improved with great social outcomes like public transport) to reduce emissions, they'd never be relected, let alone struggle to get any legislation passed.
People who blame polticans are looking to deflect blame from the real culprits. We entitled, apathetic self aborbed voter who elect entitled, self absorbed polticans and we so lack the imagination to grok what's happening what will happen.
Passenger
@largess @jackofalltrades @subjacentish
Remember that when the Netherlands began its switch from car-based infrastructure to the modern bicycle paradise that the rest of the world envies, it was in the teeth of hatred from much of the populace. Dutch people in the 1970s loved their cars as much as anyone in Europe did. It was only after roads were made as inconvenient as possible and bicycles were prioritised - that is, after material change had happened - that people's opinions changed to reflect that.
Saying "voters need to change" is an escape hatch. Voters will vote their beliefs, and those beliefs are created by the structural and material conditions in which they live.
People who drive on tax-subsidised roads, who live in cities planned around cars, who have military-protected petrol supplies - of course these people are going to love their cars.
Jack of all trades
"What are reasonable solutions to climate change?"
Green growth, EVs, Inflation Reduction Act.
"No, what are *effective* solutions to climate change?"
Degrowth, public transport, global carbon tax.
"But that's unreasonable!"
🤷
William Rees put it best:
"The politically acceptable is ecologically disastrous, while the ecologically necessary is politically impossible."
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