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   Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 09:46:09 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

   • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
   @karolherbst More toxic doesn't matters, because you cannot rate harm (and when you ever slightly gamify it, there's always trolls who try to have the best score at being harmful).
   And the harms are usually different anyway, like FSF types don't do the same one.
   
   Honestly it just seems like you're trying to avoid gaming community being described as awful to FOSS devs, even though it is.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 09:47:01 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @karolherbst (Also could you try to use post edits instead of delete-and-redraft, it just destroys threads as a feature)
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 09:56:40 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @karolherbst AGAIN, unless the fucking gamer community figures out a way to have one subgroup of them being particularly bad or good, it's going to be a zone damage, because there's no possible way of doing something better.
     
     AGAIN, please fucking stop trying to say that everyone is a gamer, that's not how anyone uses the term. You're full of bullshit for repeating this one.
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     karolherbst 🐧 🦀 (karolherbst@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 09:56:42 JST karolherbst 🐧 🦀

     in reply to

     @lanodan my point is you can't just make such general statements.

     There are certainly toxic gaming sub communities out there. But saying "gaming community" being toxic is the same as saying "sport community" are being toxic.

     Sure, there are toxic sports fan out there, but I wouldn't dare to say that sports communities are all toxic.

     Unless you say all of humanity is being toxic, but then the label "toxic" means nothing anymore.

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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 09:58:31 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @karolherbst
     > I wouldn't dare to say that sports communities are all toxic.
     
     Anything esport on the other hand is probably the most irredeemable part of being awful to foss.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:11:46 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @karolherbst > Who is a "gamer" then
     
     Either you're a chatbot or you're unable to retain anything past one post. Plonk, have a good day, remember to tell gamers to not be entitled in foss bugtrackers.
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     karolherbst 🐧 🦀 (karolherbst@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:11:48 JST karolherbst 🐧 🦀

     in reply to

     @lanodan Who is a "gamer" then and how many people are "gamers" according to this definition?

     How many Linux users do we have?

     How much higher are the chances to find a toxic person in all of the Linux users, and in all of the gamers?

     The point I'm trying to make is, that there are a lot of people who would call themselves "gamer" without being toxic. And I don't think we can do that collateral at all.

     I myself would me a "gamer" because I do play games a lot.

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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:18:19 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @karolherbst "a lot" is meaningless and it doesn't depends on time but on being invested/hooked.
     
     Litterally in the first reply I put it as:
     > as in the self-titled ones to a point of nearly defining it as personality trait, not like players
     
     Hence why karolherbst is being a chatbot.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:18:20 JST :umu: :umu:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @lanodan @karolherbst aren't gamers are just people who play games a lot?
     
     https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gamer
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamer
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:26:24 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @karolherbst Except not really, because there's this pattern that happens near systemically, that so many foss devs have personally experienced:
     - You're in a foss bugtracker/chatroom
     - Someone very specifically mentions something gaming related
     - That someone ends up being an ass
     - There's no other recognisable trait (What you're going to do background checks on assholes? Who does that)
     
     https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/by-others/funroll-loops/Gentoo-is-Rice.html also says about the same thing for Gentoo, which hopefully we've (being a Gentoo contributor myself) learnt to avoid/reduce as it's toxic to Gentoo itself.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:26:26 JST :umu: :umu:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @karolherbst @lanodan ok that would sound like sophism but hear me out.
     
     Couldn't we just agree that are no saint people in this world and at some point everyone has been toxic to another person?
     
     (I honestly don't like the word toxic. If you want to say "rude" or "mean", just say it then)
   • Embed this notice
     karolherbst 🐧 🦀 (karolherbst@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:26:27 JST karolherbst 🐧 🦀

     in reply to

     • :umu: :umu:

     @a1ba @lanodan

     they said "Gamers™ (as in the self-titled ones to a point of nearly defining it as personality trait, not like players) are a special kind of toxic though."

     but what does that even mean...

     as I said, I do play games a significant amount of time and would call myself one.

     But then assuming everybody else uses "gamers" as in "those toxic ones" doesn't get you anywhere, as you _will_ be misunderstood and only irritate the non toxic ones.

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:32:25 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @lanodan @karolherbst @a1ba
     > - There's no other recognisable trait (What you're going to do background checks on assholes? Who does that)
     
     left-leaning trans discords do, apparently.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:42:38 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @karolherbst Internet dynamics sure doesn't helps, but things like reputation still ends up existing.
     Effectively because humans recognise patterns based on their experience.
     
     And while I can understand grunting about how reputation can be really hard to address, you do need to fix the problem at the source first, and that hasn't been done.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:42:39 JST :umu: :umu:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @lanodan @karolherbst idk I'm not psychologist.
     
     Honestly, I haven't met that much toxic people (as in having pattern) in real life. Could I say that people on Internet are in general are leaned towards being toxic? To me, it's just easy being mean to people on Internet because there are no real consequences of that.
     
     What I want to say is that I don't see any behavioral difference between gamers and people in general on Internet. Including every definition of the word "gamer" I've heard in this thread.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:49:33 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @karolherbst I meant group reputation here as that's the context.
   • Embed this notice
     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 10:49:34 JST :umu: :umu:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @lanodan @karolherbst
     
     Reputation doesn't exist on the Internet once you stop caring about it. Changing your persona isn't that hard if you have nothing to lose.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 11:06:45 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @karolherbst Reputation that FOSS devs have of gamers, which is the subject of this thread, it hasn't changed, please try to retain context.
     
     And it's a group persona, and by the way taking group critiques as personal is a frequent error but something people need to learn to not do, the way to address it isn't really via changing yourself (although that helps) or a specific individual but how the group as a whole acts.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 11:06:46 JST :umu: :umu:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @lanodan @karolherbst what kind of group?
     
     Like gamers (again, in any of the definition) as a group? FOSS developers as a group? Fediverse users as a group? Cat pictures lovers as a group?
     
     I can write a paragraph about the toxicity of the each ones. Yet it doesn't define the individuals inside that group.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 11:16:39 JST :umu: :umu:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     @lanodan @karolherbst
     Sure. I forgot we're talking a spherical FOSS dev in a vacuum who is tired of spherical gamers.
     
     Still, it also would be much better if a group of people that likes to classify other people into groups just stopped doing so without their consent.
     
     If you define group of gamers as a toxic gamers, I'm 100% sure it would be full of toxic gamers because that's how you defined that group to begin with.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 11:18:32 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @karolherbst And it's also as utterly meaningless as ranting against specifically against "assholes", you might as well scream into the void.
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     Ruru! 🦉 (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 11:27:52 JST Ruru! 🦉

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @lanodan @karolherbst
     
     
     I suppose we can keep the word "gamer" to describe the toxic fucker who happens to play video games, since it's not just foss devs who hold that association. But then we shouldn't equate "gamer" with "person who love to play gaems" :thonk:
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 11:27:52 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     • Ruru! 🦉
     @lonelyowl @karolherbst @a1ba It's more about fans, which in critiques often goes to the noteworthy part so fanatics / stans.
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     Ruru! 🦉 (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 11:37:56 JST Ruru! 🦉

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     @lanodan @a1ba @karolherbst
     
     Every community have it's own orthodox zealots, it's not hard to find such in free software movement as well. You can throw shit at them if you wish so, i won't condemn you as i feel i understand what kind of "gamers"(tm) you meant, just don't overgeneralize 🤷♀️
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 22-Dec-2023 11:44:25 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • karolherbst 🐧 🦀
     • :umu: :umu:
     • Ruru! 🦉
     @lonelyowl @a1ba @karolherbst At least I see it a bit like how you'd critique bikers or rockers.
     Which in a way, if it were overgeneralization it would likely have been something like "nah, not all bikers, it's only bmw drivers who are like that" rather than "Noo, not all gamers".