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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 01:38:23 JST Evan Prodromou

I refuse to believe that the only way Israeli citizens can be safe is if the 2.2M Palestinians in Gaza are killed or expelled. I will never, ever concede that point.

In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 01:38:23 JST from cosocial.ca permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 03:58:21 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Paul Jacobson
  @paul I think that is the mainstream view.
  Unfortunately, there are some really terrible people in office and in the establishment in Israel. They are very much in the eradicationist camp.
  https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/
  https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-773713
  https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
  
  In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 03:58:21 JST permalink
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  Paul Jacobson (paul@digitalstuntfactory.com)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 03:58:23 JST Paul Jacobson
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  @evan we would never expect 2.2 million Gazans to die or leave Gaza for us. We just want them to stop attacking our citizens, and get on with their lives.
  
  In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 03:58:23 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 04:35:29 JST Evan Prodromou
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  - Paul Jacobson
  @paul well, unfortunately, they're in the cabinet during a war, so we need to pay attention and make sure their plans aren't implemented.
  The demands that Palestinian civilians flee Khan Younis towards Rafah and uninhabited areas on the Egyptian border are really making the "humanitarian evacuation" scenario seem likely.
  I've asked my governments (US and Canada) to oppose any plan that empties Gaza.
  
  In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 04:35:29 JST permalink
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  Paul Jacobson (paul@digitalstuntfactory.com)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 04:35:31 JST Paul Jacobson
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  @evan Surely you're not suggesting that Israelis should be characterised by our extremists? Particularly where those extremists are pretty unpopular at the moment.
  
  In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 04:35:31 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 05:52:15 JST Evan Prodromou
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  - Paul Jacobson
  - Eh?!?
  @Eh__tweet @paul sorry, but there is a big difference between extremist in the general population and extremists in the cabinet. The first are worrisome; the second are an immanent danger with a real potential to execute their plan.
  
  In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 05:52:15 JST permalink
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  Eh?!? (eh__tweet@mastodon.uno)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 05:52:20 JST Eh?!?
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  - Paul Jacobson
  @paul @evan
  This kind of generalization that projects the acts of a minority of extremists on the whole people they are part of is one of the bricks that make the wall that divides permanently two people and blocks any path to peace.
  This was also my first thought when I read "we would never expect 2.2 MILLION GAZANS to die or leave Gaza for us. We just want THEM to stop attacking our citizens".
  
  In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 05:52:20 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 07:10:25 JST Evan Prodromou
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  - jhall251
  @jhall251 https://cosocial.ca/@evan/111518015647985399
  That's not even taking into account the many times Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, Dichter and Eliyahu have talked about a "Nakba" in Gaza.
  In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 07:10:25 JST permalink
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    Evan Prodromou (@evan@cosocial.ca)
    
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    @paul@digitalstuntfactory.com I think that is the mainstream view. Unfortunately, there are some really terrible people in office and in the establishment in Israel. They are very much in the eradicationist camp. https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/ https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-773713 https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
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  jhall251 (jhall251@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 07:10:27 JST jhall251
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  @evan
  What major person is saying that? Millions of Palestinians, millions of Israeli Jews. Nobody is going away. How to live together is the whole thing.
  
  In conversation Monday, 04-Dec-2023 07:10:27 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:30:49 JST Evan Prodromou
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  @tom@f.cz you mean, you think I have made up this idea? I wish I had.
  https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576
  In conversation Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:30:49 JST permalink
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    Leaked document fuels concern Israel plans to push Palestinians from Gaza into Egypt | CBC News
    
    An Israeli government document suggesting the mass relocation of Gaza’s 2.3 million people to Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula is fuelling concerns about the possible ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
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  Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:30:50 JST Tomáš Beneš
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  @evan don't remember the last time I saw such an obvious strawman 👏
  
  In conversation Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:30:50 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:33:57 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom there is also a good explainer here: https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23933707/israel-palestine-hamas-gaza-nakba-displacement-refugees-history
  In conversation Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:33:57 JST permalink
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    Palestinians fear they’re being displaced permanently. Here’s why that’s logical.
    
    from https://www.facebook.com/sigalsamuelauthor/
    
    In Israel, calls to expel Palestinians have become increasingly mainstream. Many believe an expulsion like the 1948 Nakba is possible.
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:38:36 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom the far-right Netanyahu cabinet includes many eradicationists including Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, Gamliel and Eliyahu. Netanyahu himself uses references to historical genocides in his speeches.
  
  In conversation Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:38:36 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:53:41 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom hey, there's a new opinion piece in the Jerusalem Post on the topic. It's a real banger of an ethnic cleansing plan. Also, there's science!
  https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-779510
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:53:41 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:55:09 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom you may have missed this older piece.
  https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-773713
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:55:09 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:22:33 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom so, your quibble is that I said "killed or expelled" instead of just "expelled"? Despite the fact that 1% of all Gazans have been killed in the last 2.5 months? It's the fastest rate of civilian casualties since the Rwanda genocide.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:22:33 JST permalink
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  Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:22:34 JST Tomáš Beneš
  in reply to
  
  @evan "completely"? Nah, you've just took over few bits, substituted "push" with "kill" and "concept after attack" with "plan".
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:22:34 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:31:09 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom there have definitely been advocates publicly for using starvation and disease to eliminate Palestinian civilians.
  https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:31:09 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:43:16 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom I'm opposed to the eradication of Palestinians from Gaza.
  It is a real idea that has real support at the highest levels of government in Israel. Support for ethnic cleansing at that level of government in any state on the planet is cause for alarm.
  Opposition to ethnic cleansing is not necessarily support for Hamas. That is a false dichotomy that illustrates my initial point. We can oppose ethnic cleansing without opposing Israel's right to exist and defend itself.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:43:16 JST permalink
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  Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:43:17 JST Tomáš Beneš
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  @evan I'm well aware of few ugly boys (Netanyahu included) in the government of Israel. But it's also obvious that you kinda ignore difference between support of leading parties in the conflict https://www.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-shows-gantz-at-43-seats-netanyahus-likud-at-18-smotrich-out/ vs. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 (isn't "Hamas" tabu in your mental world?)
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:43:17 JST permalink
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    Election poll shows Gantz at 43 seats, Netanyahu’s Likud at 18, Smotrich out
    
    Wartime survey finds coalition parties would crash to 41 seats, opposition parties would skyrocket to 79; respondents prefer Gantz to Netanyahu as PM, 52%-27%
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    Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign
    
    The findings signal more difficulties for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s goal of ending Hamas’ capabilities.
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:46:27 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom also, I'm very glad to see confirmation that most Israelis oppose ethnic cleansing in Gaza. It would be great to get a government in place that considers that concept as beyond the pale.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:46:27 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:02:55 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom I'm aware that Hamas fighters have been killed; the last number I saw was 8000 fighters. The best numbers I've seen show about a 60-62% civilian casualty rate, which is exceptionally high. There is intentional bombing of civilian targets, so-called "power targets".
  https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:02:55 JST permalink
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  Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:02:56 JST Tomáš Beneš
  in reply to
  
  @evan the Rwandan genocide is of course just coincidence milestone, not comparison in any way. Interesting numbers you've found, didn't you forget to watch ratio of eliminated hamas targets too? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=On%2013%20November%2C%20IDF%20forces,civilian%20to%20militant%20death%20ratio.
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:02:56 JST permalink
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    Casualties of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war
    
    As of 25 December, 22,000 Palestinians and Israelis in all have been killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 68 journalists (61 Palestinian, 4 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 135 UNRWA aid workers.On 7 October 2023, 1,139 Israelis and foreign nationals, including 764 civilians, were killed, and 248 persons taken hostage during the initial attack on Israel from the Gaza Strip. Since then, over 20,000 Palestinians (the majority of whom were women and children) in the Gaza Strip have been killed according to the Gaza Health Ministry. A further 248 Palestinians were also killed in the West Bank by Israel military and settlers, and nine Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in the West Bank in the same period. Casualties have also occurred in other parts of Israel, as well as in southern Lebanon, and Syria. The casualties of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war include combatants and civilians from Israel, Palestine, and numerous other nations. Israel Civilians and soldiers As of 1 December, around 1,332 Israelis have been killed since 7 October (inclusive...
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:06:02 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom it sounds like we might be on the same side against ethnic cleansing. Neither one of us thinks it's acceptable. I think you're saying that it's so unlikely that it's unfair and intellectually dishonest to even talk about it. I would say that the risk of ignoring it is too great.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:06:02 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:08:51 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom I don't know if it's "the" plan, but it's definitely "a" plan. And if someone were to try to execute such a plan, immiseration of the Palestinians in Gaza, destruction of civilian infrastructure, and pushing civilians toward the Egypt border would all fit in with the plan.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:08:51 JST permalink
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:35:41 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous."
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing?wprov=sfla1
  Killing and expelling Palestinians from Gaza would be a case of ethnic cleansing, especially if it were followed with a settlement program. It does not matter if Israel proper has a diverse population.
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:35:41 JST permalink
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    Ethnic cleansing
    
    ...
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  Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:35:42 JST Tomáš Beneš
  in reply to
  
  @evan oh yeah, Israel is so pure, and that's why they desperately need to clean Gaza too 😂🤦 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_and_religious_groups
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:35:42 JST permalink
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    Demographics of Israel
    
    The demographics of Israel, monitored by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, encompass various attributes that define the nation's populace. Since its establishment in 1948, Israel has witnessed significant changes in its demographics. Initially formed as a homeland for the Jewish people following the Holocaust in World War II, Israel has attracted Jewish immigrants from around the globe. Consequently, the Jewish population in Israel is incredibly diverse, with roots spanning Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas. As of March 2023, Israel's population stands at approximately 9.73 million. Jews make up the majority at 73.5% (about 7.145 million individuals). The Arab community, spanning various religions excluding Judaism, accounts for 21% (around 2.048 million). An additional 5.5% (roughly 534,000 individuals) are classified as "others". This diverse group comprises those with Jewish ancestry but not recognized as Jewish by religious law, non-Jewish family members of Jewish immigrants, Christian non-Arabs, Muslim non-Arabs, and residents without a distinct ethnic or religious categorization.Beyond the predominant Jewish...
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  Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:36:49 JST Evan Prodromou
  in reply to
  - Tomáš Beneš
  @tom I'm saying that there are, in fact, people advocating for killing Palestinians with starvation and disease. You questioned whether that was a real position.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:36:49 JST permalink
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  Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:36:50 JST Tomáš Beneš
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  @evan I'm not sure if you're strawmaning or whatabouting here 🤔
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:36:50 JST permalink

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