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   Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 01:38:23 JST Evan Prodromou

   I refuse to believe that the only way Israeli citizens can be safe is if the 2.2M Palestinians in Gaza are killed or expelled. I will never, ever concede that point.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 03:58:21 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Paul Jacobson

     @paul I think that is the mainstream view.

     Unfortunately, there are some really terrible people in office and in the establishment in Israel. They are very much in the eradicationist camp.

     https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/

     https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-773713

     https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

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     Paul Jacobson (paul@digitalstuntfactory.com)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 03:58:23 JST Paul Jacobson

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     @evan we would never expect 2.2 million Gazans to die or leave Gaza for us. We just want them to stop attacking our citizens, and get on with their lives.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 04:35:29 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Paul Jacobson

     @paul well, unfortunately, they're in the cabinet during a war, so we need to pay attention and make sure their plans aren't implemented.

     The demands that Palestinian civilians flee Khan Younis towards Rafah and uninhabited areas on the Egyptian border are really making the "humanitarian evacuation" scenario seem likely.

     I've asked my governments (US and Canada) to oppose any plan that empties Gaza.

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     Paul Jacobson (paul@digitalstuntfactory.com)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 04:35:31 JST Paul Jacobson

     in reply to

     @evan Surely you're not suggesting that Israelis should be characterised by our extremists? Particularly where those extremists are pretty unpopular at the moment.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 05:52:15 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Paul Jacobson
     • Eh?!?

     @Eh__tweet @paul sorry, but there is a big difference between extremist in the general population and extremists in the cabinet. The first are worrisome; the second are an immanent danger with a real potential to execute their plan.

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     Eh?!? (eh__tweet@mastodon.uno)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 05:52:20 JST Eh?!?

     in reply to

     • Paul Jacobson

     @paul @evan
     This kind of generalization that projects the acts of a minority of extremists on the whole people they are part of is one of the bricks that make the wall that divides permanently two people and blocks any path to peace.

     This was also my first thought when I read "we would never expect 2.2 MILLION GAZANS to die or leave Gaza for us. We just want THEM to stop attacking our citizens".

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 07:10:25 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • jhall251

     @jhall251 https://cosocial.ca/@evan/111518015647985399

     That's not even taking into account the many times Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, Dichter and Eliyahu have talked about a "Nakba" in Gaza.

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     jhall251 (jhall251@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 04-Dec-2023 07:10:27 JST jhall251

     in reply to

     @evan
     What major person is saying that? Millions of Palestinians, millions of Israeli Jews. Nobody is going away. How to live together is the whole thing.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:30:49 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tom@f.cz you mean, you think I have made up this idea? I wish I had.

     https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576

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     Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:30:50 JST Tomáš Beneš

     in reply to

     @evan don't remember the last time I saw such an obvious strawman 👏

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:33:57 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom there is also a good explainer here: https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23933707/israel-palestine-hamas-gaza-nakba-displacement-refugees-history

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Tuesday, 26-Dec-2023 23:38:36 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom the far-right Netanyahu cabinet includes many eradicationists including Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, Gamliel and Eliyahu. Netanyahu himself uses references to historical genocides in his speeches.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:53:41 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom hey, there's a new opinion piece in the Jerusalem Post on the topic. It's a real banger of an ethnic cleansing plan. Also, there's science!

     https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-779510

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:55:09 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom you may have missed this older piece.

     https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-773713

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:22:33 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom so, your quibble is that I said "killed or expelled" instead of just "expelled"? Despite the fact that 1% of all Gazans have been killed in the last 2.5 months? It's the fastest rate of civilian casualties since the Rwanda genocide.

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     Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:22:34 JST Tomáš Beneš

     in reply to

     @evan "completely"? Nah, you've just took over few bits, substituted "push" with "kill" and "concept after attack" with "plan".

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:31:09 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom there have definitely been advocates publicly for using starvation and disease to eliminate Palestinian civilians.

     https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:43:16 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom I'm opposed to the eradication of Palestinians from Gaza.

     It is a real idea that has real support at the highest levels of government in Israel. Support for ethnic cleansing at that level of government in any state on the planet is cause for alarm.

     Opposition to ethnic cleansing is not necessarily support for Hamas. That is a false dichotomy that illustrates my initial point. We can oppose ethnic cleansing without opposing Israel's right to exist and defend itself.

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     Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:43:17 JST Tomáš Beneš

     in reply to

     @evan I'm well aware of few ugly boys (Netanyahu included) in the government of Israel. But it's also obvious that you kinda ignore difference between support of leading parties in the conflict https://www.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-shows-gantz-at-43-seats-netanyahus-likud-at-18-smotrich-out/ vs. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 (isn't "Hamas" tabu in your mental world?)

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:46:27 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom also, I'm very glad to see confirmation that most Israelis oppose ethnic cleansing in Gaza. It would be great to get a government in place that considers that concept as beyond the pale.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:02:55 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom I'm aware that Hamas fighters have been killed; the last number I saw was 8000 fighters. The best numbers I've seen show about a 60-62% civilian casualty rate, which is exceptionally high. There is intentional bombing of civilian targets, so-called "power targets".

     https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

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     Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:02:56 JST Tomáš Beneš

     in reply to

     @evan the Rwandan genocide is of course just coincidence milestone, not comparison in any way. Interesting numbers you've found, didn't you forget to watch ratio of eliminated hamas targets too? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=On%2013%20November%2C%20IDF%20forces,civilian%20to%20militant%20death%20ratio.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:06:02 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom it sounds like we might be on the same side against ethnic cleansing. Neither one of us thinks it's acceptable. I think you're saying that it's so unlikely that it's unfair and intellectually dishonest to even talk about it. I would say that the risk of ignoring it is too great.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:08:51 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom I don't know if it's "the" plan, but it's definitely "a" plan. And if someone were to try to execute such a plan, immiseration of the Palestinians in Gaza, destruction of civilian infrastructure, and pushing civilians toward the Egypt border would all fit in with the plan.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:35:41 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous."

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing?wprov=sfla1

     Killing and expelling Palestinians from Gaza would be a case of ethnic cleansing, especially if it were followed with a settlement program. It does not matter if Israel proper has a diverse population.

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     Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:35:42 JST Tomáš Beneš

     in reply to

     @evan oh yeah, Israel is so pure, and that's why they desperately need to clean Gaza too 😂🤦 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_and_religious_groups

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:36:49 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tomáš Beneš

     @tom I'm saying that there are, in fact, people advocating for killing Palestinians with starvation and disease. You questioned whether that was a real position.

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     Tomáš Beneš (tom@f.cz)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 05:36:50 JST Tomáš Beneš

     in reply to

     @evan I'm not sure if you're strawmaning or whatabouting here 🤔