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   Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:17:59 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

   Of fucking course glibc would have int ioctl(int fd, unsigned long request, ...); instead of int ioctl(int fildes, int request, ...); (POSIX)

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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:21:18 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • indentation consulting services
     @psykose …ffs indeed
     
     https://git.alpinelinux.org/aports/tree/community/ffmpeg/v4l-ioctl.patch
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     indentation consulting services (psykose@donotsta.re)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:21:20 JST indentation consulting services

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     @lanodan even the bsds match here and posix is wrong, nobody uses the int signature except musl
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:27:18 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • :umu: :umu:
     • indentation consulting services
     @a1ba @psykose Go away you pest.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:27:20 JST :umu: :umu:

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     • indentation consulting services
     @lanodan @psykose idiotlibc strikes again
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     indentation consulting services (psykose@donotsta.re)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:28:42 JST indentation consulting services

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     • indentation consulting services
     @lanodan reminds me of a recent change to iso C where musl was one of very few conforming implementations so they changed the spec so now it's one of the few that isnt (see printf %lc in november on musl ml)
     
     posix should really change this too but sadly it's an abi break
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     indentation consulting services (psykose@donotsta.re)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:28:43 JST indentation consulting services

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     @lanodan :D
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:29:50 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • :umu: :umu:
     • indentation consulting services
     @a1ba @psykose No seriously, there's no place for gratuitous insults like this, fuck off with your proprietary garbage and learn problem solving.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:29:52 JST :umu: :umu:

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     • indentation consulting services
     @lanodan @psykose :neofox_3c:
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:31:53 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     @psykose It's also quite weird… isn't ioctl a syscall and so ABI-defined by the kernel?
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:34:33 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba I'm not even using Alpine here.
     Is Gentoo stuck in Docker containers now? 🤪️
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:34:34 JST :umu: :umu:

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     • indentation consulting services
     @lanodan @psykose it's sad that this shortsightedness don't allow Alpine to grow outside of Docker containers.
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     indentation consulting services (psykose@donotsta.re)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:35:26 JST indentation consulting services

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     @lanodan i think the kernels use unsigned long too, but i got lost in a maze last time i went to check, go spelunking :D
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:41:37 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba Which is nothing to do with Gentoo at all.
     
     In fact most distros lack this rather critical capability which allows smooth system updates.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:41:40 JST :umu: :umu:

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     @lanodan yeah, anyway it's recompiling everything from scratch on every breaking update. :)
     
     which by itself isn't bad but it just contradicts my belief that library developers (or in general whose work others rely on) should at least try keeping backwards compatibility. And of course compatibility with alternative implementations, even if it breaks an imaginary standard.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:45:58 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba Lol, you're full of shit.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:46:01 JST :umu: :umu:

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     @lanodan with Gentoo? No.
     
     With musl? Absolutely. They said they won't even try keep compatibility. New breaking musl update? Go recompile everything and probably lose some software that's impossible or rather hard to rebuild.
     
     Honestly, can't think of a libc that do keeps it's ABI stable except Bionic which breakages are usually documented.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:49:36 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     @psykose Holy crap…
     I'm yet again in the trap of "Linux doesn't defines their syscalls".
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:51:57 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba No you want to shove binaries of proprietary software, which for me ought to be automatically tossed into Mordor, specially native binaries.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 20:51:58 JST :umu: :umu:

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     @lanodan I just want application programming for Linux to be easy.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 21:26:08 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba Linux binaries is either you can make static binaries or you're completely and forever screwed and for an abysmal number of reasons, one of which being that APIs are defined by C, which isn't appropriate for defining ABIs.
     
     Everyone learnt this one, specially non-C developers like anyone who would use Go or Java.
     
     Meaning you tried to do something that no one should ever do, you did it, got burned and instead of learning you're blaming everyone else and harassing anything anyone dealing with anything somewhat related to musl.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 21:26:09 JST :umu: :umu:

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     • :umu: :umu:
     @lanodan I once tried the simplest on first glance thing: compile my own free and open software targeting all actual versions of various Linux distros, just to let users install a package using their distro package management.
     
     That was my worst nightmare.
     
     1) It's not easy to keep up with whatever every distro has. <--- which is where I have my grudge against everything that's not Portage... I kinda miss my Gentoo days :(
     
     2) It's possible to make portable binaries but not always, something unexpectedly breaks anyway and it's always some tradeoff on a toolchain side. <--- which is where I have my main grudge against musl which doesn't even want to keep compatibility
     
     3) It's possible to "bring your own distro" but it's also not flawless and overly bloated like Flatpak.
     
     4) It's much easier to make building as simple as possible and instruct users on what to do <-- which is where I have my grudge against hard to maintain build systems like cmake and autotools
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 21:26:11 JST :umu: :umu:

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     @lanodan I never even wrote proprietary software.
     
     But indeed I believe that others should have the option to just distribute binaries. Whether run them or not is the user's decision.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 21:38:22 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba Yet musl is the only one you see as a target for harassements and insults.
     
     And I'm not saying it's not a case that could be worth pursuing, but if you want that to happen it's with pretty much the entirety of the linux userspace you'd effectively be making your own OS.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 21:38:23 JST :umu: :umu:

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     @lanodan it's not only the musl my friend.
     
     You can't always just build your program statically and expect it will work. Try to draw a triangle with OpenGL in a statically linked program without assuming the GL_VENDOR. With hardware acceleration. Just the simplest hello world. Doesn't sound like a thing "no one should ever do", isn't it?
     
     Also, tell me, why keeping the ABI works for Windows? Ok, Windows must die, another example. Android! Why you can compile your C code targetting oldest Android version and it will work on every version released after?
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 21:41:06 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • Rich Felker
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     @psykose I think I got it and it would mean linux-ABI wise musl is wrong, which I guess would overrule POSIX. (And codebases could use `#ifdef __linux__` if any Unix somehow is POSIX-conforming)
     
     https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/arch/arm/tools/syscall.tbl?h=v6.7-rc3#n68 (or any architecture)
     https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/include/linux/syscalls.h?h=v6.7-rc3#n382
     
     @dalias Any opinions on this?
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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 21:49:52 JST Rich Felker

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     @lanodan @psykose That's the syscall not the function. There is no "linux ABI" governing the function. Assuming the function is nonconforming because the kernel is linux is wrong. Either write code not to care, or probe it with a configure test, or probe it with _Generic.

     Arguably this is a case where "POSIX is wrong", but changing it would be breaking our own existing ABI to meet other-libc ones we have no obligation to match, so it's probably not a good idea to change..

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 22:00:22 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba I've no idea how Android deals with ABIs, last time I tried to touch Android development was in Gingerbread era and I don't intend to touch Android ever again even as a user.
     
     But well Google can be like "This is the ABI, anything else is banned" because they control and certify the platform, there's no alternatives, Nvidia's bullshit with EGLStream for example probably simply doesn't happens. (Meanwhile I wouldn't be surprised that you'd strongly defend nvidia's bullshit on ~desktop linux)
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 22:00:23 JST :umu: :umu:

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     @lanodan you didn't answered the question. Why it works with Android? How this case is invalid?
     
     Also yeah, you're right, maybe I want too much from musl that's not designed to keep backwards compatibility. They have the right to make a libc in a way they want.
     
     Still, I find their decisions not fair to whoever that has to deal with them. Murder me for that.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 22:45:08 JST Sexy Moon

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     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @lanodan windows updates their ABI sometimes, they just keep all the old ones
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 22:50:18 JST :umu: :umu:

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     • Sexy Moon
     @Moon @lanodan
     
     Talking about libc, they also allow to bring newer libc version but still work with other system libraries. So you potentially might have a C23 on Windows XP. (I wonder if subsystem option works on latest MSVC)
     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 23:07:19 JST Sexy Moon

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     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @lanodan I didn't perceive any problem
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 23:07:20 JST :umu: :umu:

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     • Sexy Moon
     @Moon @lanodan reread this thread. God I'm a schizo. I'm so sorry.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     :umu: :umu: (a1ba@suya.place)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 23:11:17 JST :umu: :umu:

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     • Sexy Moon
     @Moon @lanodan that wasn't meant to be a that serious instead I'm now worried about lanodan, I still want to be his friend.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 01-Dec-2023 23:13:04 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • Sexy Moon
     • :umu: :umu:
     @a1ba @Moon I'm not going to unfriend you over this, but well… don't repeat it.