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   nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:33:11 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)
   systemd and x11 piss me off because they are awful but so much other stuff depends on them and lacking them often leads to hardware issues
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     ?Hidden? (hidden@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:34:17 JST ?Hidden?

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     @nemesis systemd will never stop tormenting my friends AAAA
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:34:17 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     @hidden @nemesis For me, it's glibc.
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     ?Hidden? (hidden@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:35:07 JST ?Hidden?

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     @nemesis Windows 10. I run it because I think it's fun when Windows update bricks my pc by corrupting my drivers and I have to journey across the river styx to fix it
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:35:09 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     @hidden on my laptop which just died I was running artix+openrc+wayland+sway and it worked fine but on other hardware I have had issues
     
     what OS do you run btw? I dont think I've ever heard you mention it
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:39:55 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     @allison @hidden yup, thats even harder to avoid

     someday if I have the right hardware I want to try running Gentoo with coreboot, kernel deblobbing, openrc, wayland, musl, clang, libressl, busybox, and doing this hardening guide, however this probably surpasses the amount of linux autism I am capable of

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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:43:41 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato ehh, it fills a niche and is useful from an end user perspective but its also typical poetteringware. ideally I would like to completely avoid poetteringware and gnushit
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@5dollah.click)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:43:42 JST Johnny Peligro

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     @nemesis i am ok with systemd
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:45:35 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @teratology @hidden I should really try void or alpine at some point
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:45:35 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @nemesis @hidden @teratology once battlemage comes out and I can get my hands on it, it's actually a real possiblity
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     cipote :bishrexual: (teratology@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:45:37 JST cipote :bishrexual:

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     @hidden @nemesis not if they used Void Linux

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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:48:24 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @nemesis @hidden @teratology no, compute. all the stuff for intel cards is actually foss and unlike amd it works.
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:48:25 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @allison @hidden @teratology afraid it will break your gaming set up?
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:51:22 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @hidden @nemesis pipewire-pulse will probably never disappear since it's intended to be a transparent dropin replacement and everyone keeps targeting the old apis, systemd is another matter (as famously noted here https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2020/05/02/0/ among other places)
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@5dollah.click)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:51:23 JST Johnny Peligro

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     @nemesis @hidden @allison someday in the future. transition periods are always painful
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:51:24 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     @allison @hidden both wayland and pipewire also have the problem also that in practice using them usually requires you have some compatibility layer for x11 and pulseaudio, ideally I would likely to completely get rid of xwayland and pipewire-pulse too
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:53:07 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @allison @hidden @teratology ultimately I wish I could just have a consumer TPU instead of a GPU
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:53:08 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @allison @hidden @teratology ah
     
     I am still an nvidiacuck, mostly because my GPUs are a few years old and until fairly recently ML on not-cuda was shit and gpgpu on not-cuda is still pretty shit compared to cuda
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:53:23 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @nemesis @hidden @teratology agreed, but it's a good stepping stone in the meantime
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:59:53 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @hidden @nemesis I very much doubt dedicated init systems are going to stick around too much longer, much less a userspace monolith like systemd. The original technical rationale for it is dead and eBPF is rapidly encroaching on many of the niches it holds.
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@5dollah.click)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 06:59:54 JST Johnny Peligro

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     i expect basedtemd to stay for a good while
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:01:07 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @allison @hidden @teratology oneAPI is definitely great, it seems like something that might actually be able to compete with CUDA. it doesnt seem to me like intel has as good hardware in absolute terms (vram and tflops) as nvidia though, at least for high end stuff
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:01:07 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @nemesis @hidden @teratology Yeah, even the top end Alchemist for consumer usage (A770 16GB, what I have) is roughly comparable in raw performance to a RTX 3060 or 3070. Whether Battlemage will change the situation or not remains to be seen.
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:01:24 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • cipote :bishrexual:
     @allison @hidden @teratology (high end = competing with 4090s and V100s)
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:03:11 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @hidden @nemesis Unironically real and true, I've seen so many Linux true believers go through this disillusionment in real time and it's never a pretty thing to see.
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@5dollah.click)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:03:12 JST Johnny Peligro

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     lol, lmao
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@5dollah.click)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:03:23 JST Johnny Peligro

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     we'll see. if the stuff that comes after is good and better, i dont care. At this stage, I *can't* care, since any distro i would consider worthwhile to use uses systemd, and the only one i use is tightly coupled to it.
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@5dollah.click)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:10:23 JST Johnny Peligro

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     I can imagine. At the end of the day, linux's bread and butter is the server/enterprise, first and foremost. They are who pay people to work on the thing.
     I think linux could be the free and decentralized thing neckbeards hoped it was, but that'd require people to change and donate money constantly to developers that already work in foss. That said, I acknowledge this isn't the case and most liekly will never be the case, and that the real change is often found in the hands of developers that are *paid* to work on foss. And as of late, I've realized that I get a lot from paid devs. Valve, RH, etc.
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:12:03 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @hidden @nemesis Yeah for sure, I certainly don't mind paid devs doing their thing on kernel and core middleware although I do take umbrage with the GnomeOS crowd for lots of reasons. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter too much since I can always "just" jump ship to alternatives modulo hardware support (like the aforementioned Arcan and s6)
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:13:15 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @hidden @allison honestly, being a server and enterprise thing has been great for linux imo. open source development is broken imo without traditional backing
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:15:22 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @nemesis @mischievoustomato @hidden Especially given the ballooning complexity of hardware, non cathedral models are simply untenable unless radical simplifications are made which nobody is actually willing to do.
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:17:14 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @nemesis @mischievoustomato @hidden As eBPF gains capabilities like instrumenting and spawning processes, I find it not outside the realm of plausibility that most of the functionality of the "traditional" PID1 will move into the kernel.
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:17:15 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @allison @mischievoustomato @hidden huh this is a take I havent heard, can you elaborate? how could you not have a dedicated init system, something needs to be pid1
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:18:42 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @allison @mischievoustomato @hidden ah yeah that makes sense, though the simplest way for that to happen would just be to run systemd in unikernel mode (which is possible today)
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:19:29 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @hidden @nemesis Ko-Fi and GitHub Sponsors exist but in absolute terms they aren't used much
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@5dollah.click)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:19:30 JST Johnny Peligro

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     yeah. Cohesion is as important as funding.
     I wish there was a patreon-like kind of thing but for foss software development.
     I have heard a lot of bad things of the gnu stuff, but nothing I ever paid attention to beyond some performance stuff, and gpl criticisms.
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:19:31 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @hidden @allison yup, absolutely. I dont like "open source" as opposed to free software at all, "bazaar" development doesnt work, without leadership, direction, and funding any sizeable software project is dead in the water, if it manages to make something at all it will be some bloaty disorganized hard to use mess (see: everything made by the GNU Project)
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@5dollah.click)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:19:32 JST Johnny Peligro

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     • ?Hidden?
     broken is an understatement. It's the backbone, the base, the support of the whole thing. Sure, hobbyists can build stuff and so on, but as stuff gets mroe complex and responsibilities pile up, it's hard to keep up
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:21:28 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @allison @mischievoustomato @hidden the danger of supply chain attacks means some funding source will need to be created, there's way too much vulnerable mission critical dependencies and eventually corporations will want to start paying to figure out how to secure them
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:22:35 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @nemesis @mischievoustomato @hidden Turns out "debugging is parallelizable" only works if there are actually humans to parallelize it
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:27:17 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @nemesis @mischievoustomato @hidden Just because you don't have _NSAKEY doesn't mean you're immune.
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:27:18 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @allison @mischievoustomato @hidden yup, the "thousand eyeballs" idea is a myth anyways tbh, for one thing all thousand eyeballs are likely to be looking at the most interesting parts of the code and not the most vulnerable
     
     I am almost certain the NSA has backdoors into OpenSSL and both the Linux and BSD kernels, despite them being open source
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:29:21 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @allison @mischievoustomato @hidden well, fixing the kernels is basically impossible imo until we have simpler hardware, as you suggested
     
     fixing userspace software *is* possible imo, it would be a large effort but I think it is doable. like producing some kind of emacs++ that you could run as PID1 and which would run everything inside an interpreter for a high level language
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:30:54 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @nemesis @mischievoustomato @hidden Not quite related, but I should see about maiko as PID1, Lisp Machine live CD would be something else.
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     nemesis (asbestos arc) (nemesis@the.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:33:45 JST nemesis (asbestos arc)

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @allison @mischievoustomato @hidden that would be cool indeed
     
     I think the biggest obstacle we have right now is that no HLL is good enough for the task of being the Language of Everything. I have certain ideas on what to do but, its a rabbit hole that I dont really want to go down less I fully succumb to NIH syndrome
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     :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 25-Nov-2023 07:34:12 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @nemesis @mischievoustomato @hidden I'd be interested in hearing them privately sometime