Morgunin
Nicholas Potter kommentiert in der taz das “Ohrenbetäubende Schweigen” der Club-Szene, obwohl die Hamas ein Psy-Trance Festival überfallen hat, dort vergewaltigte, mordete und die Opfer und ihre Leichname schändete.
Mir ist das schweigen auch schon aufgefallen, auch weil einige “aufgeklärte” Bekannte mir in den letzten Jahren des Öfteren mal ihren verschwörungstheoretischen Krampf unter die Nase gehalten haben.
https://taz.de/Schweigen-der-Club-Szene-zu-Hamas-Terror/!5962392/
blake shaw 🇵🇸
@ArneBab
I think our governments are supporting an actual genocide, Palestinians are the victims, and to avoid such things its imperative that we support the divestment from Israel, not blaming the resistance for exercising their right to resist!
Hamas isn't my responsibility. The actions of NATO and its allies are.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml so you think that a war between Iran and Israel will improve living conditions in Gaza?
blake shaw 🇵🇸
I believe that its legitimate to try to overthrow your colonizers, and seek allies who can help, even if they are unsavory to the colonizers or fascists, such as the case of the Soviets.
It is legitimate to strike fear into the hearts of colonizers, and there have been a wave of Israelis going back to the US and Russia since 2021 uprising.
When you are facing genocide, when you are subjected to the most dehumanizing circumstances, any means at your disposal can be taken..
And Hamas denies that there was any rape of those who were kidnapped, to respond to your friend above. Claiming POC rape white women is the oldest colonizers tactic in the book, look at Tulsa, and was used against us by the nazis extensively.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml where did I write that I am concerned about a strategically bad situation for Israel?
Do you mean that Hamas might have hoped that Hezbollah would join in so they would actually have a chance to win?
I am asking you again how you think that the Hamas leadership might have thought that this attack would improve living conditions in Gaza.
blake shaw 🇵🇸
The only thing that will improve the living conditions of Gazans is giving the entire population existing under Israeli sovereignty equal rights and the ability to vote. And they arent going to let that happen.
You are both concerned about how this puts Israel in a strategically bad situation, that may even be existential if the wider Levantine Muslim world becomes incensed, such as with Hezbollah, but you also claim this amounts to nothing and can't possibly do good for Palestinians.
Which means you think Palestinians don't deserve their UN guaranteed right to resist by any means necessary. Because you don't believe that putting the Zionist state in jeopardy is a legitimate form of resistance. How does that not add up to "Palestinians need to accept their genocide"? What can they do? Peaceful protests? Ghandi? That doesn't really work when the power is trying to exterminate you rather than use you as an endless reservoir of cheap labor.
Hamas is the resistance in Gaza. PFLP militants participated too, but Israel just calls it all Hamas, while building racist stigma around them and claiming they are like... Germans.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml the Hamas leadership must have known that this attack would lead to retaliation that destroys all civilian infrastructure they built up and would destroy their support in Israel.
Do you see anything how this attack could have improved the living conditions for the people in Gaza?
@Morgunin
blake shaw 🇵🇸
@ArneBab @Morgunin Hamas is first and foremost the civil society of Gaza. They were democratically elected, and will be again if the PA allows another election. It started as q da'wa org by a blind quadriplegic, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, and only later developed their militant al-Qassam Brigades wing. Without Hamas, there would be no schools, no hospitals, no food, nothing in Gaza, all of which they smuggle in, and pay for using their well-organized da'wa.
Blaming Hamas as Israel uses white phosphorous in the most densely populated place on earth is hardly different from Russia blaming UAF while bombing residential zones of cities. And there is no denying that Ukraine has targeted and killed thousands of Russophone civilians in the war. The primary difference I can gather is that Ukraine is a geopolitical battle between two major military powers (Boris Johnson halted the peace talks it should be remembered) with Ukrainians caught in the middle, whereas Hamas is fighting with makeshift weaponry in one of the poorest parts of the planet, against the most technologically advanced military in the world after the US.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml no, I am saying that the attack of last weekend supported Netanyahu and his goal to worsen situation in Gaza.
Since you do not seem to see how this attack could further liberation, I conclude that Hamas leadership did this knowingly.
I differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians at large.
Most palestinians are victims, Hamas leadership is not.
@Morgunin
blake shaw 🇵🇸
You realize thats victim blaming right? Israel doesn't have to colonize them. But they do have to resist if Gazans are to survive this.
You are claiming that its Hamas' fault for what Israel does to them. Just the like the Nazis claimed that Marxist resistance on behalf of Jews could only be eliminated via the elimination of Jews.
"We didn't want to do it them -- they gave us no choice!"
blake shaw 🇵🇸
So you're just going to deny that Hamas is fighting for liberation, while admitting the MK were? So what do you say about Desmond Tutu claiming that Hamas' resistance is just and like theirs, only the conditions they are subjected to are more brutal, fighting a much more advanced weapons manufacturer?
Thats dehumanization. You're willing to turn the other way and prop up a boogey man so that you can support a fascist state's genocide of Palestinians, which is modeled on the US trail of tears system, which inspired your government to commit the Holocaust against us.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml Do the actions of Hamas further liberation or do they worsen oppression?
@Morgunin
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml No, I do not think that Gazans have the ability to fix this.
I see however that at a time when large parts of the Israelis were protesting against their government, this attack is a present Hamas gave Netanyahu to bring those to heel who oppose him.
Regarding Nelson Mandela: this is precisely why I write that atrocities for the sake of atrocities is worse than atrocities as a means to an end.
@Morgunin
blake shaw 🇵🇸
@ArneBab
do you think Gazans have the ability to leave Gaza? Do you think that they have the ability to buy medicine on the international market, or to start businesses and banks? Do you think people who are forced to subsist in the most densely populated ghetto on the planet, which is used as a giant experimental site for Israeli weapons, plummeted with white phosphorous and other chemical weapons every two years have no right to fight for their liberation?
Do you think that the MK's program of bombing of Wimpy's Burger Joints across South Africa and brought the apartheid government to a heel was just inexcusable? If so, do you hate Nelson Mandela? If not, how do you reconcile the two? He maintained that the bombings were essential to the ending of apartheid until the day he died. You can either pick colonized or colonizer, war and colonialism is brutal, and the colonizer has NEVER in history been less brutal in their crimes. Israel is no exception, making jews an exception is the WORST form of antisemitism. As Agamben notes, the exceptionalization of Jews, the making of jews as an exception to the law was precisely what enabled the Holocaust. And Palestinians exist in a similar state of juridical exception. There is no democracy in Israel, the majority of the population under the state's sovereignty has no recourse to law or a vote.
Do you think it was so wrong for us to rise up and kill 150 germans in the Warsaw Ghetto? Even if they were all "civilians", it would still be just. I hope we can agree on that. Its dangerous to think that Jews and Ukrainians should be given a certain privileges to resist, but Palestinians should have no such rights. Liberation is ugly, its not a dinner party, and Palestinians did not choose to be colonized.
Israelis, on the other hand, elect their leaders and largely approve of how Palestinians are treated like animals, made to wait in cages to visit their grandmas in the neighborhood a kilometer away, routinely sexually assaulted while passing through checkpoints, and have experimental chemical weapons deployed against them *EVERY SINGLE FRIDAY*, with drones buzzing over their heads monitoring their movement at every moment of the day.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml Last weekend showed me that I was too naive about hate. How it festers and gets people to commit and celebrate atrocities.
I do not know a solution for it.
What I know is that right now, in the aftermath of hundreds of people murdered by attackers with the intention to commit atrocities without a chance to actually improve the situation of their friends and family, security for Israel comes first.
@Morgunin
blake shaw 🇵🇸
@ArneBab
Well if you looked deeper into your history maybe you wouldn't think that colonialism was just "maximizing prpofit without caring for lives" while the Holocaust was a unique instance of germans attempting total eradication of peoples.
von Trotha:
"I believe that the [Herero] nation as such should be annihilated, or, if this was not possible by tactical measures, have to be expelled from the country ... This will be possible if the water-holes from Grootfontein to Gobabis are occupied. The constant movement of our troops will enable us to find the small groups of this nation who have moved backwards and destroy them gradually."
Yes, the Holocaust was one of the worst genocides in history, paralleled perhaps only by the genocides of indigenous peoples of the Americas. More Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, including my family members, than there are Palestinians. but to then go to bat for a neo-Lebensraum project in the Levant shows you've learned nothing from your history, as you support a newly announced total state of seige imposed on Gaza, starving the most densley populated place on the planet in a Stalingrad fashion, for exercising their right to resist colonization, ensured by international law in UN resolution 2625.
but to understand that in a genuine capacity should lead any German who takes the total criminality of their Nazi past seriously to side with the Palestinians. Or, at the very least, be honest about who you support -- Zionists, not Jews.
@Morgunin
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml To the other point: I’ve been to Auschwitz in school. What happened there was not colonialism. It was industrialized murder.
The intention was not maximized profit without caring for lives or dignity of people (which was the point with colonialism: de-humanization for profit) but eradication of jews with minimized cost.
There is a difference.
@Morgunin
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml I know these points. None of them justify the atrocities those committed who murdered hundreds of people in Israel.
And no, I am not legitimizing horrible living conditions in any way. I am also not legitimizing the current Israeli government.
I am speaking precisely against this attack.
@Morgunin
blake shaw 🇵🇸
as a Jew its unbelievably offensive to see Germans make Palestinians in Gaza, who are under seige, drained of all life sources, undergoing gradual genocide, 700 murdered in the past two days at the hands of one of the world's most technologically advanced militaries using precision weapons, out to be antisemitic. you are legitimizing a situation that resembles the Warsaw Ghetto in every capacity, in the name of Jews. get it right -- you stand on the side of Zionists, not Jews. if you aren't anti-semitic, you will be very, very careful to make sure to choose this wording in the future, especially as a German. anti-Zionist Jews are older than Israel itself. Yes, we had political orgs before the establishment of Israel, study the Bund and learn some history if you want to talk and these kinds of posts "on behalf of jews". All I see here is the use of Jewry by Germans to sustain your imperial, colonial ambitions in the world, and there is no doubt Fanon was correct when he said that the Holocaust was colonialism at home. It was no worse than what you did in Namibia. we are simply white, and thus easier for you to sympathize with, believe it or not.
antisemitism is orientalism applied to Jews. Very few Palestinians are antisemitic; its primarily those who adhere to the pan-Levantine espoused by the SSNP, which is marginal in Palestine at best. Many may be racist towards Jews, but that is a colonizer/colonized relation.
I have been doing hacker labs in Palestine since 2012. Palestinians suffer under the most extreme police state imagineable. I have been strip searched, beat and restrained by IDF officers in Hebron, and I have a white shield -- its nothing like the literal torture, rape and systematic abuse my Palestinian comrades regularly experience. the IDF sends a tank called the skunk on patrol every friday, that hoses down entire villages with a material that smells like rotten eggs and sewage, and takes weeks to go away. Israelis experience no such thing.
I have been teaching at a cultural center in Nablus for a decade, that is funded primarily by Hamas' Zakat Committees. they know I'm a Jew, and have only ever been welcoming to me. I stay there with them, I cook with them, I hang out and smoke shisha with them. whenever I've fallen on hard times, they are the first to reach out to me. they are not anti-semitic, they are resisting actual genocide.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@Morgunin Ich fand es schwer, Worte dafür zu finden: https://www.draketo.de/politik/terror-against-israel
Ich mag nicht Teil der Club-Szene sein, aber wenn hunderte Juden ermordet werden, will ich dazu nicht schweigen.
blake shaw 🇵🇸
"Jews don't have a chance to win in the Holocaust so they have to accept their circumstances" is all that I'm hearing.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml that’s also the difference between Hamas and Ukraine: the Ukrainians fight because they actually have a chance to win.
@Morgunin
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml that there is no end to US military power is a misconception. There is an end to it, but that has not been reached.
That’s why there is no contradiction:
Yes, without strong resistance the US troops would not have left.
And without protests in the US and people turning against the war, the US troops would not have left either. They could have sent a lot more troops.
This is not about heroic white kids. This is about understanding and accepting who has which leverage.
@Morgunin
blake shaw 🇵🇸
They were defeated!
There is no end to the US's military power. They can go on for decades and decades longer. They didn't achieve their goal, they were defeated by one of the greatest military strategists in history, and the will of the Vietnamese people to resist.
Its insanely weird to deny the victories of decades of struggle by Vietnamese people and make it about the heroism of white kids back home. It has all the qualities of white savior complex.
If popularity determined which wars happen we wouldn't have ever been in Iraq in the first place. Our protests against Iraq were larger than the 70s protests, actually, and they were simply blotted out of the news. We're still in Iraq and Syria, which have been pummeled and turned to dust. Had Vietnamese resistance not been so enduring, the US wouldn't have left there either.
They remain throughout the pacific.
blake shaw 🇵🇸
That is absolutely not true! The Vietnam war ended in the 70s, the largest demonstrations against it had largely subsided by then end of the 70s. The Vietnamese absolutely defeated the United States. There is a reason why Giáp is considered one of the greatest military geniuses of all time.
I live in Hanoi, understand the language well enough to read in Vietnamese, and know the history very well.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml then maybe you should correct wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
"endorsement for the war effort fell from 40 percent to 26 percent"
"Westmoreland requested 200,000 additional troops, which was leaked to the media, and the subsequent fallout combined with intelligence failures caused him to be removed from command in March 1968"
They did not lose due to lacking military power. The public was not willing to pay the cost to win.
Arne Babenhauserheide
@rml This is a situation in which one side is massively stronger than the other.
Remember that the Vietnam war did not end because the US army lost, but because the US public mobilized against it.
To improve the situation in Gaza, Palestinians need to gain support by Israeli citizens — the only ones with the power to bring changes.
The attack by Hamas last weekend will make that much, much harder.
@Morgunin
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