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   Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:18:05 JST Quad
   Ah yes, classic Norway.
   ~8 EUR of actual electricity costs.
   Still have to pay ~46 EUR in "grid fees"
   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:19:23 JST Quad

     in reply to
     The reason is because Norway fucked their energy transfer fees. You used to pay per kWh (which was annoying enough)
     
     But now you also pay for your 99th percentile peak.
     
     In theory this was supposed to incentivize people to spread out their energy use by charging their electric cars overnight and such.
     
     In practice it means a guy like me who lives alone ends up paying the same base fee as a family of four simply because I turn my stove on once a day to make dinner. Or because I take a shower before bed.
     
     Of the 536,43kr fee, 325kr is because my peak usage is 2 - 5 kWh during one hour. Which is a stupidly huge range. The issue is that having a monthly peak usage below 2 kWh is basically impossible if you want to be a regular human and take a shower once a day.
     
     Since every time you take a shower, your water heater probably turns on for an hour, after which you automatically game over and have to pay the same fee as a small family.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:20:13 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     @quad it doesn't make sense to bill a single household by 99th (or 95th) percentile since a single household doesn't have enough differerent electricity-using devices for the use to spread out

     What they should care about is that you don't cook at the same time as your neighbour. If the whole building / neighbourhood was billed by 99th percentile that'd make more sense... but how does that neighbourhood become a legal entity and how would it coordinate people inside it?

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:23:29 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @pony @wolf480pl Same with second highest. Middle of the night.
     
     Probably just bad luck making my fridge and water heater kick in at the same time or something.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:23:31 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @pony So far this month my highest hour is 00:00 - 01:00 on 04.10.23
     
     (I guess I was unlucky and my water heater turned on with bad timing or something? I was probably well nested in bed by that time since it was a wednesday)
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:23:32 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @pony They take your usage for every single hour of the month, sort them from high to low, then average the top three hours of the month.
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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:23:33 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     @quad @pony also by "2 kWh peak" do yoy mean 2 kW? Cause 2 kWh doesn't make sense as a "peak" unless they're calculating it in a braindead way (which you're kinda saying they are so...)

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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:23:34 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     @quad @pony can you get PV on your roof?

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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:23:35 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @pony @wolf480pl The problem isn't charging for peak usage.
     
     The people who drain like 12 kWh in one hour should get gouged for it.
     
     The problem is how my grid operator calculates it and that they chose a wide ass range like 2 - 5 kWh. This allows them to both charge a fat fee from each household.
     
     And if someone complains about the price, they can blame the consumer instead by simply replying "all you have to do is use less than 2 kWh peak" (which is practically impossible for 99% of homes)
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     Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon (pony@blovice.bahnhof.cz)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:23:37 JST Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     in reply to

     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @quad well, if you as a utility company promise to deliver that power peak, why shouldn't you bill it, you kinda need to have that capacity, so this is quite fair?
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:25:11 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @pony @wolf480pl No it's really because Norway's grid is embarrassingly underspecced at times.
     
     Rather comically during the winter energy crisis, Norway was plenty of electricity in the north. But the grid from north to south was too shit to transfer it down. So they had to sell energy to Sweden in the north, then buy it back from Sweden at a higher price down south (to essentially "rent" sweden's grid).
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon (pony@blovice.bahnhof.cz)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:25:13 JST Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     in reply to

     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @quad nordics electricity is pretty cheap in "volume", it's not like in Poland where you need to shove a carload of coal into the furnace for every 10 or 15 MWh of power, it's more important to manage how it is used over time, a guy who needed more total power over the year but never really needed a lot of it at once is a "better" customer there
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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:25:14 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     @pony @quad what do you mean by "the cumulative difference over large time"?

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     Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon (pony@blovice.bahnhof.cz)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:25:15 JST Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     in reply to

     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @quad what does it matter though, the cumulative difference over large time is quite small, the peaks are more significant (especially if they make you tap into very expensive standby power sources), there probably isn't really a good reason why household electricity prices shouldn't be mostly fixed (for infra) and flat
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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:25:16 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     @pony @quad you don't promise that you will deliver that peak power. You promise to deliver whatever the breaker at the electrocity meter is. And then if it turns out someone is using less than thay, you charge less.

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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:28:56 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @pony And that's an hour of 60 km/h on twisty Norwegian roads, no highways around here
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:28:57 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @pony I live within an hour's drive of like 15 hydroelectric power plants afaik
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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:28:58 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     @quad @pony HQ is irrelevant, but if you lived right next to a dam...

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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:28:59 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @pony @wolf480pl Heck, I used to live only about 500m from my grid operator's HQ ffs
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:29:00 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @pony @wolf480pl In reality the actual electricity price is lower though. While I live in one of the most rural areas of Norway, I also live in one of the highest producing regions.
     
     This has been a controversy for even longer. We produce the most electricity and our electricity has to travel "shorter" than the rest of the country, yet the consumers here have some of the highest grid fees in the country as well.
     
     That's a separate and older issue from the new pricing structure though
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:29:01 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @pony @wolf480pl It makes sense for me that people living in more rural areas might have to pay a bit more for the grid, due to the higher cable to people ratio.
     
     What I don't get is why I who live alone has to pay the same "usage fee" as a small family.
     
     The fact that I pay a bit more per kWh is fine.
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     Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon (pony@blovice.bahnhof.cz)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:29:02 JST Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @quad i think our gobo once tried to make distribution costs more regional but it had to be scrapped when people from most rural regions complained they are going to be paying significantly more for it because in their minds that somehow wasn't fair
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:29:04 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     @pony @quad
     Ok, but from the utility company's POV it doesn't matter what an individual customer's peak usage is - the wires that go from the shared line to that customer have lots of headroom.

     The problem is peak usage of a whole district, a whole city, or the whole grid.

     An ideal customer would be one that uses 0kW during peaks and a lot of kW during off-peak hours, making the whole district look flat

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     Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon (pony@blovice.bahnhof.cz)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:29:04 JST Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     in reply to

     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @quad if everyone is staying mostly flat, the total is also mostly flat... if the peak is industrial, those guys probably have precise times and volumes they want, so that doesn't affect residential pricing (directly)
     
     i mean, you could just have one flat fee for most residential electricity (maybe tiered by breakers you have) and it would most likely be more fair than metering, if it should be varied, then probably not by consumption but by infrastructure needs
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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:29:48 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @pony here's the hydroelectric plants that Google Maps knows about in my area
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:29:49 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     @quad @pony
     > twisty Norwegian roads

     :blobaww:

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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:37:15 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @quad @pony @wolf480pl Sad, doesn't looks like they're all in OSM: https://openinframap.org/#10.01/61.6166/5.599/L,P,S
     (Smaller ones need a bit of zoom but still)
   • Embed this notice
     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:38:08 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Ignas Kiela
     • Wolf480pl
     @ignaloidas @wolf480pl Oh it gets stupider too. The next step up is 5-10.
     
     And to make things even stupider, the price for companies is LOWER. Don't know how they came to that decision, but the majority of the grid cost is put on people's homes, while companies with a 100 kW plasma burner pay lower peak fees.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Ignas Kiela (ignaloidas@not.acu.lt)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:38:10 JST Ignas Kiela

     in reply to

     • Wolf480pl

     @quad@akko.quad.moe @wolf480pl@mstdn.io yeah, 2-5kWh is just an idiotic range.
     
     Like, ffs, the only range where the upper bound is twice the lower bound should be 500-1000Wh. Whatever this is just idiotic.

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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:38:11 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Ignas Kiela
     • Wolf480pl
     @ignaloidas @wolf480pl The solution is pretty retarded.
     
     If anything it means someone like me can happily consume in higher peaks, as long as I don't exceed 5 kWh during three of the hours it makes no friggin difference.
   • Embed this notice
     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:38:12 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Ignas Kiela
     • Wolf480pl
     @ignaloidas @wolf480pl Grid operators were forced to have a separate nighttime price to incentivize charging EVs overnight. But that's about it and it's barely lower (0.4991 NOK/kWh daytime vs 0.4535 NOK/kWh nighttime)
     
     My bill was 325 NOK flat fee because I used 2-5 kWh peak, and around 200 NOK of actual usage.
   • Embed this notice
     Ignas Kiela (ignaloidas@not.acu.lt)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:38:14 JST Ignas Kiela

     in reply to

     • Wolf480pl

     @wolf480pl@mstdn.io @quad@akko.quad.moe I mean, a realistic solution would be to have the transmission fees vary by energy consumption in the country/region (basically in the same way they vary hour over hour in the whole country anyways). This peak usage solution is just fucked IMO.

   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:38:32 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon

     @quad @pony no no, show me pics of the roads

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     Quad (quad@akko.quad.moe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 00:38:32 JST Quad

     in reply to

     • Cat poni, lgbt feminist drag nato demon
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @pony just street view it bro
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.