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1. Embed this notice
   novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 21:59:10 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

   Whoever is ddosing the bad space should stop, that's not remotely helping anything. Same goes for the people who are directly pinging Ro to shout at him. C'mon. I know he's put you in a double bind because he also gets mad if you just shout about him without pinging him, but like... don't harass ppl. Basic decency. I feel like this has gotten out of control

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 22:25:22 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @freakazoid yeah. It just makes me really sad, and I wanted there to be at least SOME non-badspace-aligned voice pointing out that it's bad. Honestly, this whole thing makes me sad. Ro was trying to do a really good thing! Yeah, he went about it the wrong way, yeah he fucked up, but that could've been dealt with normally, but now he's doubled down on being an asshole to everyone (probably bc of the terrible experience Black ppl have on the fedi generally) and the whole situation is FUBAR. 😩

   • Embed this notice
     Charles U. Farley (freakazoid@retro.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 22:25:23 JST Charles U. Farley

     in reply to

     @anarchopunk_girl That assumes it's someone who might actually hear this versus some literal Nazis who decided to seize the opportunity to sow further discord. But maybe it is.

     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 03:13:33 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Kristina, adherent of the void

     @ThatFemboy "I honestly think that people *are* being racist by hurling toxicity at Ro and trying to shut TBS down and they need to fucking stop"

     Read the thread pinned to my profile. TBS has some serious fundamental foundational problems that make me absolutely not trust it and think that even if it isn't specifically transphobic it will continue to be the long arm of the fediHOA and be used for petty power tripping reasons. And yes personally throwing toxicity and insults and expletives and stuff directly at Ro is bad. I think most of the people who take it in their heads to directly message him to tell him to fuck off or something are probably racist. But in general I think he has more than earned a lot of the negativity and criticism directed at him, at least from me and the people I follow, for his absolutely atrocious behavior. This didn't have to turn into the clusterfuck it turned into. But when people started criticizing TBS and being upset at the very poor way that he handled blindly importing a couple gigantic block lists, labeling them all as blocked for hate speech and bigotry by default, and how that list overwhelmingly featured trans woman, he couldn't take the criticism and started accusing everyone who didn't come to him with a sufficiently nice and meek tone and ask to be taken off the slander list and then offer to help with the project or pay him — thereby automatically excluding anyone who has fundamental foundational questions about TBS that make them wary of contributing — of racism.

     I agree that this is not an excuse to start harassing him. I think he is possibly slightly transphobic, definitely ableist as fuck, can't take criticism, and problematically co-opts leftist language, but I don't think it's to the point where it could possibly justify harassment, and NOTHING can justify racist harassment. Which he HAS been receiving, and which is FUCKED. UP.

   • Embed this notice
     Kristina, adherent of the void (thatfemboy@toot.lgbt)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 03:13:34 JST Kristina, adherent of the void

     in reply to

     @anarchopunk_girl I honestly think that people *are* being racist by hurling toxicity at Ro and trying to shut TBS down and they need to fucking stop

     (I think my boost history shows that I disagree with the way they run TBS and that they have accidentally contributed to transphobia, but that is not an excuse to be abusive)

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 03:16:49 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Not just fedi. I think that's the problem you're having when understanding not only your own reactions but the reactions to your reactions.

     Doesn't matter if we're trans, bi, gay, asexual, etc. We have by far the worst treatment across the board. Racism against black people is still to this day (after hundreds of years) considered normal. So much so people don't even realize they're doing it sometimes.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 03:16:49 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     You're absolutely right and I don't disagree. Black people get way too much shit. In fact a lot of the time the vilification trans women receive (around being too loud, aggressive, assertive, violent, masculine) is actually just a section of the same shit black men and women get.

     I don't think that makes me wrong about the overall flow of what's happening in the issues with TBS though.

   • Embed this notice
     Kristina, adherent of the void (thatfemboy@toot.lgbt)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 03:17:57 JST Kristina, adherent of the void

     in reply to

     @anarchopunk_girl I have read it, I’m pretty sure we’re fully in agreement about this - they deserve criticism for sure, definitely not racist harassment

     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 03:17:57 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Kristina, adherent of the void

     @ThatFemboy yeah I don't think even the worst conceivable person deserves racist harassment because racist harassment is based on horribly wrong and harmful ideas, so they should never be used independent of the target.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 03:18:35 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Kristina, adherent of the void

     @ThatFemboy and to clarify, Ro, for all his faults, is FAAAAAAARRRRRRR from the worst person ever. FAR.

   • Embed this notice
     Kristina, adherent of the void (thatfemboy@toot.lgbt)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 04:11:30 JST Kristina, adherent of the void

     in reply to

     @anarchopunk_girl agreed. I might be naive but I’m honestly convinced he isn’t, at least based on what I’ve seen.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 04:11:30 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Kristina, adherent of the void

     @ThatFemboy I said he wasn't a trans misogynist right before seeing receipts of him saying he doesn't believe transphobia exists so....

     I'm still not convinced he hates trans people or trans women or is actively transphobic, and he's definitely not responsible for the systemic transmisogyny that the initial TBS list displayed, but I'm willing to consider the idea that he might be kind of transphobic by default in that fence-sitter way

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:17:07 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Well, this is how i see things going down. You and others thought they were wrong without asking who they were talking about. Not caring if they were talking actual people or not. Said they were being racist and were hiding it by saying others are.

     Began to publically say so again without evidence. Which inspired white people online to attack. They get ddos'd. They get their name absolutely drug through the mud.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:17:07 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid he never explicitly said that he believes that any and all of the people who are criticizing him and his projects are racist, no. But I think you are asking for an unreasonable standard of evidence here when I think his words taken together paint a pretty clear picture and if he meant that all people criticizing him were racist he would still never say that and insist he's a reasonable person who will accept reasonable criticisms because that would make him look reasonable.

     Given the fact that he responded with vitriol to someone who was genuinely trying to learn about the project and asking pertinent questions about it, browbeat them, and then said ableist things to them, and given the way he has consistently framed and worded the people he refers to as racist, I think it absolutely does paint a picture. I don't think it's necessary for him to explicitly say that he thinks ALL of his critics are racist for that to be what he's doing, you have to read between the lines a little bit.

     https://kolektiva.social/system/media_attachments/files/111/057/960/188/384/110/original/0a15a681eb9a4088.png "people who have gotten on their soapbox in the last few days to talk about how dangerous the site is... but it's not really about talking. It's about virtue signaling and performing for their bigot friends..."

     https://kolektiva.social/system/media_attachments/files/111/057/963/204/150/869/original/f09c5822d845c8f1.png "someone else: the angry people [which is basically all of the trans people, including some BIPOC, who are criticizing him] should get over themselves... Him: that's the thing. They can't... We can't keep giving bigots the benefit of the doubt..."

     https://kolektiva.social/system/media_attachments/files/111/057/963/274/875/571/original/2eb2adaddd3f2148.png "but if you come at me like a dickhead because you feel you or someone else has been treated unfairly... I'm going to assume you're a bigot" (tone policing assumption of bigotry)

     https://kolektiva.social/system/media_attachments/files/111/057/965/452/214/773/original/f0f615e97fb31f21.png him saying asking him to take down an unfinished product that, due do being unfinished, is slandering people, "make[s] it clear how much racism is a motivator for this space"

     Add that to him flying off the handle and browbeating someone: https://archive.ph/IHBX

     And saying that he believes trans people don't face bigotry: https://archive.ph/odBTy

     I think it paints a clear picture.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:26:41 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid "don't do this bc your project is unfinished and slandering people by accident" is very different from saying "the time isn't right" for vague centrist reasons, unless you think trans people are expendable and "you can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs."

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:26:42 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid "who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." "

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:26:43 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Oh it does paint a clear picture."I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negroes' great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's "Counciler" or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; "

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:29:15 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Right this minute you're putting a lot of effort into saying the way they said things means they are baddy bad.

     Meanwhile. If they talked like that toward transphobes i'm 100% sure you wouldn't be saying the same. Not only that but you skipped right over the vast majority of what i actually said in my replies to you.

     Which is normal for me. Having been banned from internet places because i said america was majority white.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:29:15 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     "Not only that but you skipped right over the vast majority of what i actually said in my replies to you."

     Because it all relied on the first message as a core premise, so I replied to that. I'm exhausted and can't have a discussion on a million fronts at once and the pace of your output is far beyond me.

     "If they talked like this about transphobes..."

     Don't pretend you can read my mind. If someone tries to create a transphobe blocklist that caught a bunch of innocents in the crossfire I in fact would say that maybe they shouldn't have released it in a slanderously unfinished state.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:31:29 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid "It's ironic because it shows you think black people are expendable from the trans community."

     The trans community isn't its full self without black people. And I'd rather not actually be on a lilly-white fedi. That's actually why I'm putting effort into this: I don't want black and brown people to assume that everyone who was upset with Ro was just racist and decide "fuck the fedi" and never come here.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:31:31 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Which is ironic of you to say because in one instance you're all like...but they're saying everyone who criticizes them is racist. While of course never once addressing the possibility they did and do have specific racist people in mind.

     It's ironic because it shows you think black people are expendable from the trans community. Funny how that works isn't it.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:36:37 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Seeing as how you're the same person who mentioned oppression olmypics in a discussion about black people? Yeah. I'm fairly certain i can come to a good degree of prediction when it comes to you.

     Like this is the last kind of interaction you ever want to have. Like i'm sure you'd feel much better having a discussion with a full on nazi than me.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:36:37 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid "Seeing as how you're the same person who mentioned oppression olmypics in a discussion about black people?"

     In an apology, specifically to derogatorily refer to my own mistake of saying trans people were more oppressed in some way than black people. I realize that using conservative language is bad and I shouldn't have done it but I'm not sure that's the character illuminating thing you think it is when I used it bc I specifically was using it in a way I thought was clearly not harmful.

     "Last conversation you want to be having"

     I just block Nazis. I don't discuss with them. Also if I dread this discussion so much, why am I having it? You keep saying I could just block you. I am physically exhausted at such a deep and complete neurological level thanks to my disability that every interaction is pain, but I keep getting drawn back in, specifically because I'm trying to understand and explain, and appreciate the energy you're putting into discussing with me even though you clearly think I'm a terrible person

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:39:25 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid wow okay, looking at your interpretations of what I'm saying.... I can't justify trying to discuss more in good faith with you

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:39:27 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Here's something you won't be happy with then. The more i talk to you. And the more "evidence" of what your argument is you present. The more confident i am that that's EXACTLY what other black people will pull from it.

     Because again. The very first pic you sent as evidence showed to me no trans white person even thought to ask who the offending parties were. Nope. It was right directly to BLACK PEOPLE THINK EVERYTHING IS RACIST!!!!!

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:39:27 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid If you want i can sum up your attempts at arguments here.

     1. The black person said there was racism where there weren't any.

     2. Them speaking rudely (non-traditionally) about others somehow proves they're wrong.

     3. A blocking system in which a program auto blocks offensive people and groups on the internet isn't as good as people think it is.

     4. Black people will think this situation is the norm even though if a black person is on the internet..we already know.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:44:10 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     "I never one in any way shape or form..."

     "Because the second we talk about white people's generational actions of the exact same nature. People like you will ironically ban and block us."

     "Never said this..."

     That is on me. I tend to assume anyone who disagrees with me on moral grounds must dislike me, bc I *am* often a terrible person tbh, with a habit of firmly planting my foot in my mouth

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:44:11 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid This is how i know. "You keep saying I could just block you." I never once in any way shape or form...said you could just block me. You could. But i never said it.

     "even though you clearly think I'm a terrible person" Also never said this either. You're making assumptions specifically because i'm black. And specifically because i massively disagree with you.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:45:06 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid "What i'm doing is pointing out those things you should be focusing on."

     I'm probably gonna have to sit with it all for awhile before it really processes tbh, in my past experience with myself. Some retractions might be in order here.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:45:07 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid This is what i'm pointing out. Very often white people will do things automatically without ever once thinking about it or the consequences when it comes to black people.

     What i'm doing is pointing out those things you should be focusing on.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:46:58 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid afaict they're just completely wrong though, like even from your perspective of viewing my evidence is wrong

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:46:59 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Of course not. Because that would mean stepping outside yourself. Understandable though. When you can identify with the majority of a country. The one you're in. Seeing things differently is difficult.

     But oh the irony. lol

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:58:49 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid How is it wrong?

     I'm noticing a pattern here. Where the only evidence you can present is of the please believe me variety. You tossed up a picture. And i asked..how come no one asked them who was being racist BEFORE evaluating that a black person saying racist people existed was automatically false.

     And got zero reply. Do you expect me to immediately believe that?

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 06:58:49 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     "You tossed up a picture. And i asked..how come no one asked them who was being racist BEFORE evaluating that a black person saying racist people existed was automatically false.

     And got zero reply. Do you expect me to immediately believe that?"

     The archive link I originally sent you was supposed to demonstrate him browbeating the specific person who replied to him, that's why their initial reply was centered, so the posts at that link that I was trying to point out are the original post from someone else and his replies to it — not his posts that that person was replying to. Because in the thread that the archive link had, his original messages, when he was generally accusing a non-specific group of people of racism, it truly wasn't clear that he was accusing everybody of it, and so I wasn't using that part as evidence, and the link wasn't supposed to he evidence of his general accusations, but an existence proof of the more specific thing. So I didn't answer because A) it was off topic and past when I usually go to sleep so I was struggling of a way to explain how it was off, and B) because I promptly fell asleep and forgot this morning.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:00:34 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid "If not. Why do the first bit? Why continue doing the first bit? Right. If you can say another person is baddy bad. Then you can talk with me on it."

     Temporal ordering is relevant here. I did the first bit, found it shockingly more exhausting than I expected, and now I'm in the "Wile-E-Coyote standing on air out past a cliff" stage. But I'm still discussing here precisely bc I feel obligated to.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:00:35 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Keep in mind. We couldn't even get to the other bits of "evidence" because you refused to present to me why you never thought to verify if there were racist people ro was talking about...BEFORE bombing on them with...this black person thinks everyone is racist.

     Again. Do you know/understand just how many times white people have said black people pointing out racism wasn't racism have happened on the internet?

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:00:35 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Also. If you have enough going on to basically build or join into a group saying a black person is wrong. You have enough to be able to understand what i'm saying.

     If not. Why do the first bit? Why continue doing the first bit? Right. If you can say another person is baddy bad. Then you can talk with me on it.

     But. Ability and desire are or can be two different things.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:04:56 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid This is my point though...."when he was generally accusing a non-specific group of people of racism,"..why doesn't that non-specific group matter in the context of any of this?

     If a white trans person said non-specific people were being transphobic to them. Wouldn't it matter? Why doesn't it matter when it comes to a black person saying someone was racist?

     Why wouldn't you and others ask who they were to begin with..BEFORE the riots?

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:04:56 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     "This is my point though...."when he was generally accusing a non-specific group of people of racism,"..why doesn't that non-specific group matter in the context of any of this?"

     That's not what I was saying. I was saying I was starting with an example where who he was referring to was concrete and specific, as the base case of essentially an inductive proof-type argument, and you misread which of his messages I was pointing at. It does matter later, but we haven't gotten there yet bc we're still stuck here

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:08:21 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid "That was toward your point of being tired/having difficultly doing this whole conversation thing with me.

     You: I'm tired and my ability to keep this up is waning.

     Me: Then why say they were making it about racism with no racists in mind then?"

     Yeah I know

     "Also I'm predicting..."

     I'm actually seriously considering taking down that part of my core thread on this issue, bc the evidence is thin enough that, while it seems fairly clear to me, maybe it should be left out as too flimsy, the possibility being that my interpretation IS based in whiteness. But the main thing is that I know for a fact he got angry at and browbeat and accused one specific genuine replier, so that means his other accusations are suspect to me

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:08:22 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid That was toward your point of being tired/having difficultly doing this whole conversation thing with me.

     You: I'm tired and my ability to keep this up is waning.

     Me: Then why say they were making it about racism with no racists in mind then? Also, i'm predicting that you'll continue no matter what anyone says....saying that ro was making things about racism without there being racism.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:13:34 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Again though...

     You and others: Ro is saying racists did blank. There are no racists.

     Me: How do you know there aren't any racists? Did you ask? Or are you automatically assuming there are no racists in the trans community/in the groups for which we're talking?

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:13:34 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     "You and others: Ro is saying racists did blank. There are no racists.

     Me: How do you know there aren't any racists?"

     My issue is not that I don't think there are racists. My issue is that several of his posts are phrased as if *all* people upset at him for treating them unfairly, or criticizing his project, are bigots. Which is different. There *almost certainly is* a contingent of racist people harassing him, imo. The problem is that he didn't say "there are racist people using other people's criticisms as an excuse to be racist and harass me." He said something more generalizing.

     So for me it more goes

     Me & co: Ro said all the trans women who were upset with him about slandering them, and weren't sufficiently nice about asking to be taken off the slander list, were bigots

     Ro's defenders: so you're saying there weren't any bigots after him?

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:20:45 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     I'm sorry something about your explanation here is very difficult for me to grasp rn but I think I have an intuitive leap of what you're saying so is it ok if I clarify in my own words to make sure I'm right?

     You're referring to the fact that the guy Ro got mad at said the racism didn't exist right? So you're pointing out that I'm making a sort of circular argument here, bc what that person said was only sufficiently inoffensive if and only if we (and they) *already know* that the racism didn't exist, so it doesn't work as an existence proof to get the rest of the argument running?

     Sorry I'm using this jargon, it's just what's making sense to me rn

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:20:46 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Ok. So when a woman is raped. The general replies on the internet are..you somehow wanted it. Or asked for it. That the way a woman dressed, what make-up she wore, etc. Somehow brought the rape down on herself.

     It's of course automatically wrong. But. How can you say a black person is wrong about there being racism. If you never care to find or even wonder about said racism to begin with?

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:20:46 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Further. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Ro was speaking in very specific ways. Is it because they are just like that. Or is it because they had people..................telling them racism didn't exist and they had no reason to be angry to begin with?

     Is it ro's fault that racist people were racist toward them? Or does the racism no exist at all and ro was just making everything up?

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:22:30 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Again. How did this all start? How many of you believed ro when they said racists were up their ass? How many automatically and without a shred of evidence started saying ro was pulling the race card out the crack of their ass?

     When women are raped and men on the internet automatically don't believe them. How does that make them feel? What are some of their reactions when talking about said rape?

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:22:30 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid I believed him that there were a contingent of racists, because I'm very aware of the fedi's massive issue with that. I found what he said to very clearly insinuate not that there was a contingent of such harassing him, but that everyone criticizing him was so

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:25:03 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid I didn't think they were saying that

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:25:05 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid If you believed then why was one of the first pictures you presented to me....of a person saying ro was making it all up?

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:25:50 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid the thing is, I didn't think they said the racism didn't exist, strictly speaking. Let me go back and reread it

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:25:51 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Right. I'm saying the automatic assumption (without evidence) that there isn't/wasn't any racism. Right from jump paints your perspective of ro before anything else.

     And that that assumption of there never having been any racism. Implies that ro was making it all up. Which is a right wing talking point attempt to devalue any and every black person saying racism exists.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:27:06 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     "How is it possible to get from..i believe ro experienced racism within this topic...to...ro saying everyone who is criticizing them in this topic is a bigot is wrong?"

     That the racism exists doesn't mean it's all racist, so there isn't a contradiction there, unless you don't think Ro said the second thing

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:27:07 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid How is it possible to get from..i believe ro experienced racism within this topic...to...ro saying everyone who is criticizing them in this topic is a bigot is wrong?

     Aren't those two things direct contradictions?

     If racism exists. Then isn't ro's actions and words valid? Or at the very least have a very high amount of validity?

     Where as..ro is making it up means zero validity?

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:33:19 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Then why present that as evidence toward ro's bad behavior? Because clearly..if racism exists. Ro has a valid point. And the person saying/implying that ro says anyone who criticizes them is racist/bigoted/etc being bad is wrong. Right?

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:33:19 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid going back over the archived exchange, I actually think I was wrong above that the group Ro is referring to in the second thread of the message isn't clearly everyone criticizing him. Because it seems like it is:

     Saying this when there's a large contingent of people complaining about TBS but not "collaborating" very clearly seems to paint a picture to me of anyone who is complaining instead of collaborating as racist.

     "The Bad Space is and always will be a community project; far more will be done if we collaborate to make our spaces safer rather than listening to bigots who have gripes because their friends are upset that Black and Brown folks are getting better at identifying them."

     Which in turn makes the point the poster makes ("A lot of the criticism that I've seen towards the bad space is not from a malicious or racist standpoint,") seem pretty reasonable to me

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:44:18 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid that's actually not how it works at all. It's not an auto block system that detects offensive language used and blocks you for that. That wouldn't be possible anyway since it's an instance level block list so it would have to block an entire instance for one user saying something offensive even if that user was later moderated or banned from that instance.

     According to its own website (https://tweaking.thebad.space/about) how it actually works is not detecting offensive language in people's posts and automatically blocking them whatsoever. Instead it's block list is a composite of nine "trusted authority" instances. What it does is use public apis to read the block lists of those nine trusted instances and if three or more of them block any given instance then that instant gets onto the composite block list on TBS. Then the TBS block list is designed to be downloaded as a CSV and imported into an existing instance or a new one that you're setting up.

     I have several problems with this:

     1. Centralization: we are relying on a core set of trusted authorities instead of communities collecting and sharing information about instances in a distributed and horizontal community-originated manner. I think this is a bad idea even in the abstract.

     2. Wrong Authorities: at least two of the instances of the nine trusted authorities — so almost enough to get an instant blocked by themselves — are rage.love and mastodon.art, both of which are known for making poor moderation decisions, going on witch hunts that sometimes even they later have to retract, and one of the admins of mastodon.art is Welsh Pixie who is a well-known bad actor with a transmisogynistic bias. Also at least two and probably more of the instances listed have a private discord server which means that multiple of the supposedly independent votes have a back channel where they can pressure each other to vote in unison.

     3. And of course, there are the criticisms about releasing an unfinished product where you imported a gigantic block list and by-default labeled everything in that block list as bigoted and a source of hate speech and poor moderation (instead of something nonspecific) without knowing whether that was true or whether they were part of the block list of the source instances for purely petty or temporary reasons.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:44:19 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Ok. Lets address that. So if i'm not mistaken. The program is built so that if anyone finds what others say is offensive. They are auto blocked in the program.

     What's the fear here? What are you afraid will happen?

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:44:23 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Ok. Guess you need a bit more time on that one. lol

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:44:23 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid yup just responded. I had to basically reiterate a large section of my essay

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:47:42 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid I'm not concerned about that at all to be totally honest. What happens happens. I don't think i'll ever end up in the crosshairs of someone like Welsh Pixie, I'm not big enough.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:47:43 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Is there a chance that part of the reason you're afraid of the program is because of you using terms like oppression olympics?

     The fear being that because you used right wing terms in a discussion about black people that you personally will somehow end up on the block list? :)

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:51:02 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid I mean, I think the authorities are bad. And the receipts for them too are in the thread pinned to my profile. And like, idk man, I can't turn my brain inside out and directly show you that I'm genuinely concerned about the authorities that were chosen to have trust centralized in, as opposed to it really being about race. Idk how I could respond to that really

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:51:03 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid Don't know who that is. But i would imagine that's the only possible answer to "criticisms" of what ro is doing.

     Really. The idea that it can go too far is present in all social media. Unless of course. The real problem is because ro is black.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:51:53 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid also it blocks whole instances afaict so idt I'd end up on it for that reason too

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:53:15 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     https://kolektiva.social/@anarchopunk_girl/111057860473392868

     https://kolektiva.social/@anarchopunk_girl/111059039628768512

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:54:14 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid the only reason? Not that his list was slanderous before he fixed it? Or the methodological problems?

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:54:15 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid I don't know how you could either. With that said. That's what you're up against now. Because the way i see it (even with our continued conversation) the overall issue here is a black person running things.

     From the beginning "issue" up until now. The only explanation i can see for your an others being upset is that and that alone.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:56:03 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid You're posting that as if it's valid. When you've already run afowl of black people multiple times already. Thanks though.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:56:03 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid pixie isn't black.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:59:10 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid I've tried to engage with as many of the points you make as I can. But if I don't even have the basic benefit of the doubt now for you to believe me when I talk about specific ideological criticisms of TBS, then there truly really is no point in continuing this.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 07:59:11 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid This assumes you still have the benefit of doubt i gave you in the beginning. You do not. And matter of fact the more you talked the less you got.

     I mean that's what happens when you go out of your way to misunderstand what someone is saying. Then jump over their points as if they don't matter.

   • Embed this notice
     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 08:00:09 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley
     • DryBird227

     @DryBird227 @freakazoid

     "The first link took me to your first post with a number line."

     No it didn't, it took you to a post in that thread, under that. But whatever.

   • Embed this notice
     DryBird227 (drybird227@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 15-Sep-2023 08:00:10 JST DryBird227

     in reply to

     • Charles U. Farley

     @anarchopunk_girl @freakazoid The first link took me to your first post with a number line. lol The one you already ran me away from. Thats ok though. I'm just about done with attempting to help you to understand things anyway.

     Mighty clear if you were actually open to understanding. You would already.