Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:59:01 JST Strypey

   Mainstream developers are finally picking up on the potential benefits of forge federation:

   https://piped.video/watch?v=v68NFdZIMKI

   #fediverse #ActivityPub #ForgeFederation

   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:58:44 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • tyil
     @tyil >The community edition is open source
     Most files of the gitlab client JavaScript are proprietary even in the community addition, as such are licensed under MIT expat only *after* such has been compiled/assembled etc and most of the source code files don't have a license otherwise.
   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:58:46 JST tyil

     in reply to

     • fbievan

     @fbievan@social.fbievan.live @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz #GitLab is open core. The community edition is open source, but the real "good stuff" that people actually want from it is intentionally kept proprietary. It's not a business model I personally see as a positive.

   • Embed this notice
     fbievan (fbievan@social.fbievan.live)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:58:49 JST fbievan

     in reply to

     • tyil
     • fbievan
     @tyil @strypey
     
     Plus its being done by gitlab which is open source (probably not fully free software, don't really know).
     
     Would much rather prefer gitlab, my own gitea instance, or codeberg over github (owned by Microsoft, yay!!!!)
     
     
     I am not a developer... sooo I don't really care really.
     
     federation between currently locked-in git forges would be nice with AP
   • Embed this notice
     fbievan (fbievan@social.fbievan.live)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:58:50 JST fbievan

     in reply to

     • tyil
     @tyil @strypey
     
     The thing is: forges having federation with AP is going to be better than having no federation with anything.
   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:58:52 JST tyil

     in reply to

     @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz Woah! But here's the thing! I already have an account, its called an "email account"! And it uses a vastly more simple protocol that has been proven for a much longer time! I currently need 0 accounts on complex software forges, and I'm pretty happy with this arrangement.Plus, anyone likely to file an issue likely has a fediverse accountEven more likely, they'll have an email account!

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:58:55 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • tyil

     @tyil
     > Having to register Yet Another Account somewhere would likely to have prohibited me too

     Which is why ForgeFed (forge federation using AP) is such a good idea. You will only need an account on one forge to collaborate across all ForgeFed-enabled forges. Plus, anyone likely to file an issue likely has a fediverse account and could file bugs with that.

   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:58:56 JST tyil

     in reply to

     @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz The scare quotesAnyone who doesn't know how to use git on a command-line or is scared of e-mail isn't a competent developer to me, even if some sod got tricked into paying them to develop software.Web-based issue trackers are way more accessibleThey're not, though. They're just more shiny. Having to wait for several seconds using 100Mbit internet with several CPU cores chugging just to read some text is not "accessible". Being a massive pain to work with accessibility software is not "accessible". "Accessibility" is not just "it looks really cool in marketing presentations".As you pointed out yourself in another recent postIf you read that post through, surely you'd have seen that I complain about the use of a proprietary platform, which is what "stopped" me. Having to register Yet Another Account somewhere would likely to have prohibited me too. Email, however, is quite pervasive in our society. Its something all developers seem to have, and should know how to work with.

     翠星石 likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:58:58 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • tyil

     @tyil
     > I wish mainstream "developers"

     The scare quotes around "developers" makes it clear you have an axe to grind. So there's probably no convincing you of the many reasons web-based forges are useful.

     But here's one. Web-based issue trackers are way more accessible, to most of the people you want to report issues. As you pointed out yourself in another recent post, making reporting issues really complicated can stop people from filing them.

   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:59:01 JST tyil

     in reply to

     @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz I wish mainstream "developers" would become competent enough to just use plain git + email. Much less complexity, no lock-in, already exists, already well supported and documented...

     翠星石 likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:59:47 JST tyil

     in reply to

     @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz I only knew you can set up some form of email interaction, so people can send you mails that turn into issues or discussions. But then again, why add in so much complexity when we've had mailing lists for several decades? They still work, and they run on anything with minimal requirements. They're already federated, since email is federated by design.
     
     Striving for complexity for complexity's sake seems pretty dumb to me. Using tools that have proven themselves for decades, that inherently support collaboration and decentralization, should be a pretty straightforward task to anyone that dares consider himself a "developer".

     翠星石 likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 21:59:48 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • tyil

     @tyil
     FYI i believe you can interact with GitLab issue trackers using command line Git. Same with wikis.

   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 22:00:12 JST tyil

     in reply to

     @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz Called itExcept I have heard this complaint from several people who do use screenreaders... They seem to prefer being able to use an email client they can greatly customize to fit their particular software, as that way it is always optimized for them. Modern web design doesn't allow this, and often just skips all over the place with screenreaders. If you don't fit the "norm" of a "blind" person, you're shit out of luck.But they are usable by anyoneThey're usable by anyone with low standards that doesn't want to bother thinking about how things could (and already were) better.Which broadens the range of peopleQuantity over quality is often a desire by those who can't create quality.

     翠星石 likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 22:00:14 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • tyil

     Me:

     > you have an axe to grind. So there's probably no convincing you

     @tyil
     > They're not, though

     Called it. Just like a person with 20/20 vision who can't imagine why anyone would use a screenreader.

     > They're just more shiny

     You're clearly not the target audience for web forges. But they are usable by anyone who can use apps. Which broadens the range of people who can file and triage bugs, contribute to docs, and do a bunch of other work that command line warriors prefer not to do.

   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 22:01:26 JST tyil

     in reply to

     @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz lots of web forges exist because lots of people want to use themPopularity does not even remotely imply quality. You think Windows is the epitome of computing because its the most popular desktop OS? You think Twitter is better than the Fediverse because of its larger userbase? What are you doing here in the first place?Your inabilityMy "inability" to consider bad options as the only viable ones? Their needs can differ, but the solution they're currently aiming for is already done, and it has been done for decades. All they need to do is stop glorifying bloated Javascript hellscapes, and return to thinking a bit more simplistic about their needs, goals, and desires. Not everything has to be solved by coating it in complexity and then slapping a fancy frontend on top of it. And even if you wanted that, making the forges "just a mailing list but with more features" would honestly be a step in the right direction to me, but they're not, and they're never going to be. The only one who took that design approach is SourceHut to my knowledge.Nobody is forcing you to use webforgesHow I wish that were true. Want to contribute in any way to the vast majority of software projects in existence today? You must use a proprietary webforge. You can't even search on GitHub freely without an account anymore. How that kind of control is not worrying to the average person who thinks himself a "developer" is exactly why I think the majority of them are incompetent shits who shouldn't be allowed near any kind of technology.
     
     The post you of mine you referred earlier shows that people do try and force me to use a webforge, or otherwise be denied access to support, issues, or even searching their codebase.
     
     You can call it "pissing in the wind" because the side you prefer is winning. And all they needed to convince you was a shiny web interface and a PR team.
     
     I need a quality platform that truly embraces proven, decentralized, simple, free software. That's where our differences lie.

     翠星石 likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 22:01:27 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • tyil

     @tyil i'm not sure how else to this across to you. You are missing the obvious fact that that lots of web forges exist because lots of people want to use them. Your inability to grasp that other people's needs are different from yours is mystifying to me.

     Nobody is forcing you to use webforges. But trying to explain to people why they should prefer exactly what you prefer is a waste of everyone's time, including yours. You're pissing into the wind.

   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 22:01:29 JST tyil

     in reply to

     @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz A web forge is that, but way more usefulI strongly disagree on the "useful" part. Having more features doesn't make something more useful by definition. This is why we have the term "anti-feature".the ability to work purely through Git and email is still thereAnd corporations are hard at work to make sure that dies sooner rather than later. Can't have all these people using free and simple to understand tooling, there's garbage to sell these people!
     
     If you think interacting with GitHub or any other forge over email is considered a first-class feature, you clearly have never tried using it that way. It's always just bolted on and badly integrated. They're trying to force you into a bad ecosystem, and they know treating it properly would quickly result in everyone using the better option.

   • Embed this notice
     Strypey (strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 22:01:30 JST Strypey

     in reply to

     • tyil

     @tyil
     > why add in so much complexity when we've had mailing lists for several decades?

     You know how mailing lists have web-based archives? A web forge is that, but *way* more useful. As you say the ability to work purely through Git and email is still there for those who don't need the web-based features.

   • Embed this notice
     tyil (tyil@fedi.tyil.nl)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Sep-2023 22:01:49 JST tyil

     in reply to

     • fbievan

     @fbievan@social.fbievan.live @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz Sure, but what they're aiming for is to get back to something we had before going for the centralized forges, but with a massive pile of complexity. It's better than the norm now, but it's still a big leap back from what we had before.

     翠星石 likes this.