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   HeavenlyPossum (heavenlypossum@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 06:53:24 JST HeavenlyPossum

   People like Peter Thiel are #libertarian in the sense that they want the liberty to do whatever they want to you without censure or consequence.

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     sofia ☮️🏴 (sofia@chaos.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 06:53:19 JST sofia ☮️🏴

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     • redcat

     @HeavenlyPossum
     authoritarian "anti-capitalism" is against economic freedom, is at the core of marxism and other state-socialist ideologies. here exploitation just kinda happens when people are free to engage in wage labour, blaming the victims, while workplace hierarchies are probably just part of making efficient business. inefficiencies are blamed on the "anarchy of the market". because they think power is productive and freedom is not.

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     HeavenlyPossum (heavenlypossum@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 06:53:21 JST HeavenlyPossum

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     • sofia ☮️🏴

     @sofia

     Which is why libertarianism—any substantive libertarianism, not just the pretend propertarian kind—is incompatible with capitalism.

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     sofia ☮️🏴 (sofia@chaos.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 06:53:21 JST sofia ☮️🏴

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     • redcat

     @HeavenlyPossum the problem is that (anti-)capitalism has different meanings, libertarian and authoritarian one, and modern leftism muddles them.

     libertarian "anti-capitalism" (what i like to call anti-bossism) is against centralized control in organisations and highly unequal wealth distributions. in this view, the exploitation of workers is what economists call rent-seeking. bosses basically taxing the value created between worker and consumer.

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     sofia ☮️🏴 (sofia@chaos.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 06:53:23 JST sofia ☮️🏴

     in reply to

     @HeavenlyPossum generally in the authoritarian view, if you what you are allowed to do is determined by your status, in the libertarian view it's determined by bodily autonomy and consent.

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     sofia ☮️🏴 (sofia@chaos.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 06:53:24 JST sofia ☮️🏴

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     @HeavenlyPossum Peter Thiel isn't a libertarian of any kind, or else he wouldn't work for the government's murder industry… he's also really anti-market, btw. he seem boring and unpleasant so i don't know much else about him…

     "everyone is allowed everything" is just meaningless as soon as people don't agree on absolutely anything. and if everyone agreed there would be no difference between authoritarian and libertarian anyway.

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     on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ (lain@lain.com)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 07:03:34 JST on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

     in reply to

     • sofia ☮️🏴
     • redcat
     @sofia @HeavenlyPossum @redcat i agree with you 100% but i don't think you're getting to the bottom of rent seeking, which is violence
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     sofia ☮️🏴 (sofia@chaos.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 07:16:39 JST sofia ☮️🏴

     in reply to

     • redcat

     @HeavenlyPossum as for ancaps, yeah, they tend to be pretty apologetic about workplace hierarchies, too, for similar reasons as marxists. somehow they seem to assume that despite the massive market distortion by governments, the corporate structure would be close ruthlessly optimized.

     but most of them just don't care about corporate structure very much, and just treat business as black boxes.

     @redcat

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     HeavenlyPossum (heavenlypossum@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 07:16:40 JST HeavenlyPossum

     in reply to

     • sofia ☮️🏴
     • redcat

     @sofia @redcat

     I’m not sure where Marx wrote that “exploitation just kinda happens” or that workplace hierarchies “are probably just part of making efficient business.” This sounds a lot more like an ancap caricature.

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     sofia ☮️🏴 (sofia@chaos.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2023 07:16:40 JST sofia ☮️🏴

     in reply to

     • redcat

     @HeavenlyPossum the first is pretty commonplace in any marxism 101s. what they can't acknowledge is that if workers and consumers were free to choose, and everyone would be able to freely compete with the bosses, than the market would tend towards minimal exploitation.

     the second you hear mostly from marxists after they are in power, but i think it's also somewhat implied in their concept of economic development.

     @redcat