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   Richard (aslanmane@theres.life)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:19:17 JST Richard

   @secularfaith I'll keep you in the loop of what I think when I'm done.

   • Embed this notice
     R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:19:14 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     in reply to

     • royal

     @royal @Aslanmane @secularfaith

     I guess I think of Zahnd as more-progressive-than, not Progressive.

     I remember watching a debate between him and Dr. Michael L. Brown at IHOP-KC a few years back (I wasn't in person)...

     Zahnd pushed back against substitutionary atonement, and Brown trotted out a lot of hot air and manipulation.

     I remember reading a friend's social post where he described "Zahnd" as creepy (rough paraphrase), and having a bad spirit or something.

     ...

   • Embed this notice
     royal (royal@theres.life)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:19:15 JST royal

     in reply to

     • R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     @RL_Dane @Aslanmane @secularfaith I love Zahnd but have never heard him self-identify with that term. He's very conservative (I mean this positively in his case) in many ways.

     I don't use that term of myself either. Some who do identify it with a way of reading the Bible, or with certain temporal politics. I identify "progressive" with the worldview that says the world, society, technology, etc is relentlessly progressing towards a good end, and it's important to ride that wave, so to speak. As a Christian I have a positive eschatology, but the wider culture is constantly chasing shiny things that are contrary to God's desires. We often lack the perspective to be able to discern the good from the gaudy.

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     R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:19:16 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     in reply to

     @Aslanmane @secularfaith

     Not sure if he's in the vein you're looking for, but I rather like https://brianzahnd.com/

     If you're looking for more *hard*-progressive, there's always John Pavolovitz. I love the title of his book, "If God is Love, Don't Be a Jerk."

     Also, please distinguish between "Progressive Theology," as in, "The purpose of Christianity is to be NICE to all." and "progressive theology," as in, "Feed the poor, numbnuts, the Gospel's not that hard to understand."

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     royal (royal@theres.life)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:21:21 JST royal

     in reply to

     • R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     @RL_Dane @Aslanmane @secularfaith Yep. If God has an enemy, it's sin. Sin degrades us and his creation. It isn't a balanced fight, though. Jesus is completely victorious.

     Brian Zahnd uses the word "progressive" once in that video, and he means something different from progressivism. He means that as you follow the biblical stories, God becomes better known as you go along. The apostles, post-resurrection, knew God more accurately than when Jesus first called them. The prophets knew God more truly than the Israelites in the wilderness. Moses knew God better than Jacob did.

     This really helps me when I read the old testament, since I'm ok with saying Abraham thought God wanted him to kill Isaac, when in fact God does not really want human sacrifice. Abraham didn't fully know God, and how could he? God is fully revealed in Jesus and Abraham did not have that benefit. Of course the ancients expected God to be overwhelmingly violent and to expect them to be as well. They had not seen God refusing to call down legions of angels, and absorbing all the abuse we chose to exact upon him. They figured that's what their god was like because that's what all the gods are like. But he's not.

   • Embed this notice
     R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:21:22 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     in reply to

     • royal

     @royal @Aslanmane @secularfaith

     Yes to that. I have a real problem with the idea that God would consider such puny beings as we His enemies. I think that's man's doctrine, not His.

     It would be like me getting angry at a cat and calling it my enemy, and wanting to punish it.

     That sounds infantile. :/

     Fu repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     royal (royal@theres.life)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:21:23 JST royal

     in reply to

     • R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     @RL_Dane @Aslanmane @secularfaith My issue is with the penal bit more than with the substitutionary bit. Jesus stands in our place as us, the us we never could be on our own. He shows us what true uncorrupted humanity is really like. Maybe that's substitutionary. My issue is that God is not in the retribution business. He's in the redemption business instead.

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     R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:21:24 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     in reply to

     • royal

     @royal @Aslanmane @secularfaith

     That's pretty on-the-nose.

     I'm not sure where I stand on substitutionary atonement, but I definitely see the issues from a hardline view.

     I need to go find that debate.

     Oh, here it is... ;)

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T27av-RF2-Y

   • Embed this notice
     royal (royal@theres.life)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:21:25 JST royal

     in reply to

     • R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     @RL_Dane @Aslanmane @secularfaith Likely not. Too many people think that PSA is the only true expression of the gospel, and it ain't. Zahnd does not shy away from pointing out its absurdities. The gospel is bigger and better than that.

     I recently had a friend post (elsewhere) himself wearing this shirt. If God were really as described here, he would not be worthy of our worship. Yes, it's a caricature, but it hits too close to home for me. PSA as widely proclaimed does not faithfully testify to the character of the God revealed in Jesus Christ.

     You don't have to advocate progressivism to believe that.

   • Embed this notice
     R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jul-2023 12:21:26 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

     in reply to

     • royal

     @royal @Aslanmane @secularfaith

     ...

     Apparently he doesn't please the über-conservatives too much. :P