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   Alyssa (claude_cahun@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 16-Jun-2023 23:25:36 JST Alyssa

   Increasingly disinterested in the "no one will be on your side if you talk like that" stance of people who say that they share my concerns and goals but who speak as though what our ostensibly shared concerns require most is commentary on the PR effects of any action taken to further our goals.

   • Embed this notice
     Wherz Demloots (makberberovic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 16-Jun-2023 23:25:36 JST Wherz Demloots

     in reply to

     @claude_cahun How else do you hope to make political change if not to persuade others to work with you?

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     Alyssa (claude_cahun@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Jun-2023 00:28:13 JST Alyssa

     in reply to

     • Wherz Demloots

     @MakBerberovic You're presuming a few things here: that like-minded people aren't already working together to solve problems in ways that aren't oriented towards respectability and that therefore don't dilute political messaging and goals (why do I need to convince a skeptic and alienate an ally rather than just working with the ally?); that a mass movement is necessary for effecting change, even if it requires diluting political messaging and goals (are we going to take a vote or something? why do I need a mass movement even at the cost of being unable to openly name my beliefs and goals?); and that it is possible to create a meaningful mass movement by naysaying political messages and goals you ostensibly agree with in the service of not offending potential recruits (what happens when my mass movement is filled with people who disagree with me after I publicly disavow my own beliefs and goals?).

     I'm kind of surprised you're on the anarchist server with this sort of approach negl. If recruitment and respectability are essential, even above actual political commitments, the word "anarchy" shouldn't be in your vocabulary except as something to distance yourself from.

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     Wherz Demloots (makberberovic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Jun-2023 02:45:37 JST Wherz Demloots

     in reply to

     @claude_cahun

     "like minded people are already working together" and it's not enough. We are not on track to succeed. We have already passed several tipping points both in LGBT hate and climate catastrophe.

     "why convince a skeptic and alienate an ally" because you share a goal with your ally and stakes are high. Maybe they should suck it up and embrace diversity of tactics? Fascists are super good at that and that's why they're winning.

     "why do I dilute/unable to name my beliefs?" Because your beliefs only come afterward. Anyone with a brain and a mild appreciation for science, be it a lib, leftist, anarchist, agrees with you on what the next 10 steps are; green energy, civil rights, walkable communities, ending impunity for the rich and powerful, etc. Anarchy comes after that. But if we don't do these next 10 steps you won't achieve your goals either; or the fascists can win in the meantime. Do you not think achieving these things would help you get the revolution you desire?

     In other words; it's not diluting your message to commit to short-term goals just because they don't neatly fit into your long-term goals. We can't fix the future if we have no future. The world could have as little as 30 years left.

     I am not interested in anarchy simply because that's a long-term political project, but I cannot sustain my political engagement. I'm too fragile and disabled, I will need to stop sooner than later. I am just looking for a way out of this crisis, and all I see is that most of the only few sane people (which includes anarchists) rejecting progress because they think their vision is more important than saving lives and winning over fascism.

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     Alyssa (claude_cahun@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Jun-2023 03:11:07 JST Alyssa

     in reply to

     • Wherz Demloots

     @MakBerberovic I'm not going to address all that tbh. I have things to do today and, as stated previously, I'm interested in working with like-minded people. We disagree fundamentally on some key points, from personal ethics and political beliefs to predictions about what makes for effective strategy. Suffice to say, I think it's notable that you didn't bother to defend the efficacy of mass movements, as though it should be taken as a given, and that you're speaking as though mass movements haven't been attempted, which means that you're therefore ignoring the histories that point to their failures and pitfalls. It's unserious punditry. Cable news sort of stuff. I'm not interested.

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     Wherz Demloots (makberberovic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Jun-2023 03:44:14 JST Wherz Demloots

     in reply to

     @claude_cahun No pressure if you don't wanna respond.

     Could you at least point me in the direction of whatever your alternative is in mind? I understand critique of mass movements but I've yet to hear something else touted as a strong answer to fascism and climate disaster (except, of course, the trusty brick)

     I'll also just add that I feel like working with like-minded people is a luxury. As an eastern european and autistic person, I personally know maybe 2 people across 3 continents that are 'like minded'. What I have seen however is leftists torpedoing their political efficacy and rhetoric just because they couldn't cope with the fact that other leftists weren't like-minded enough.