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1. Embed this notice
   Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 22:56:01 JST Paul Cantrell

   Does ever feel like theres a whole separate set of rules for police officers? There is. It’s not even just some subtle, emergent cultural effect. NYPD has an unsanctioned system of “get out of traffic violations for free” cards they hand out to their families and friends. They actually have a system of •physical• “rules don’t apply” cards. Think about the kind of impunity they must feel.
   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/04/nypd-lawsuit-courtesy-cards-traffic-tickets

   • Embed this notice
     Noah Gibbs (codefolio@ruby.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 22:58:41 JST Noah Gibbs

     in reply to

     @inthehands It's not even just NYPD. Those cards are not uncommon for local PDs generally, though the effect of them varies from area to area.

     Also county and national police (etc) organisations are a lot more likely to just ignore them.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 23:11:23 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     This is one of several reasons I’ve done a complete 180 on camera-based traffic regulation. I used to think cameras were creepy, and somehow a gateway to a police state. I was wrong. The system we live under now is worse. Cameras don’t randomly beat and murder people. Camera records can allow auditing for bias in who gets off the hook. And cameras don’t care about your stupid little laminated my-police-buddy-said-rules-don’t-apply-to-me card.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 23:25:57 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @inthehands But it doesn't have to be either-or. You can do much better than automated cops with technological measures. For example, instead of speeding ticket robot, you can have a light that turns red unless it senses a car going appropriate speed (some places have this!)

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 23:28:12 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Noah Gibbs

     @codefolio I’m talking about cameras mounted e.g. on a stop light that issue tickets with no traffic stop at all.

     Body cameras are a good idea too, though easily kneecapped by implementation rules as you point out.

   • Embed this notice
     Noah Gibbs (codefolio@ruby.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 23:28:14 JST Noah Gibbs

     in reply to

     @inthehands I feel mixed about some of the implementations. Police have a tendency to turn body cameras *off*, for instance, and courts tend to let them get away with it.

   • Embed this notice
     kiwi (kiwi@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 23:45:10 JST kiwi

     in reply to

     @inthehands same with ShotSpotter https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/four-problems-with-the-shotspotter-gunshot-detection-system

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 23:45:10 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • kiwi

     @kiwi
     Yeah, there’s no system that can’t be made to be racist within a racist power structure.

     But again, traffic cameras don’t murder people. Frequency of police-citizen interactions correlates directly with murders committed by police. In a racist system, traffic cameras can be an effective mitigation.

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     kiwi (kiwi@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 23:45:11 JST kiwi

     in reply to

     @inthehands Yeah no it literally works the same way, they place them in already heavily overpoliced neighborhoods and keep them far away from nice rich white people land https://www.propublica.org/article/chicagos-race-neutral-traffic-cameras-ticket-black-and-latino-drivers-the-most

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 23:45:16 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • kiwi

     @kiwi Shotspotter is a whole other problem, and does not belong in the same bucket as traffic cameras. It doesn’t have an upside. It just generates bad data that justifies bad decisions. It’s a way of cooking the books to justify violent policing. I had several rants about it back on the hellsite, and might resurrect one here at some point.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 00:06:42 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • kiwi
     • Dan Miller

     @meelar @kiwi …and it’s difficult for me to imagine how it doesn’t become incredibly racist too. But I am always interested in hearing options. We should always be considering alternatives to our current system.

   • Embed this notice
     kiwi (kiwi@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 00:06:44 JST kiwi

     in reply to

     @inthehands there's always another option https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-09/long-delayed-plan-to-have-civilians-not-police-make-traffic-stops-set-for-release

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     Dan Miller (meelar@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 00:06:44 JST Dan Miller

     in reply to

     • kiwi

     @kiwi @inthehands This seems like it would catch many fewer violators than an automated system, and be much more expensive to operate.

   • Embed this notice
     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 00:09:11 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @dalias I like this kind of nonpunitive approach very much. This particular one only works at low traffic intersections unfortunately, but I’m really happy that people are thinking along these lines.

   • Embed this notice
     kiwi (kiwi@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 00:23:49 JST kiwi

     in reply to

     @inthehands I'm just making the argument that justifying the cost of technology implementation/these contracts with private surveillance companies drives city decisionmakers' behavior in fucked up ways; it's a mistake to assume any tech is being operated neutrally because revenue or budget line items or jobs or power is always on the line
     https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/04/red-light-camera-monkey-business-may-be-a-national-trend/

   • Embed this notice
     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 00:23:49 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • kiwi

     @kiwi No disagreement there. Again, our power structures guarantee that anything they create is going to be pretty fucked up.

     I’m making a fairly narrow argument: (1) traffic cameras reduce the extent to which murder is a direct result of racist policing (even though policing is still racist), and (2) they open the door a crack wider to potential oversight (even if they don’t guarantee it).

     Not full solution. Mitigation.

   • Embed this notice
     maegul (maegul@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 01:27:59 JST maegul

     in reply to

     @inthehands I knew someone who got pulled over by a cop. Good chance that they were actually over the limit or something, they were like that. At some point the cops demeanour changed to a much nicer one and they let them go. They were confused. When they got home they realised that on the back seat was a bag their mum had given them. Their mum was a prosecutor and the bag was branded as though it was a professional bag for staff of the prosecutors office (which it probably was).

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     Lightfighter (lightfighter@infosec.exchange)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 03:02:41 JST Lightfighter

     in reply to

     @inthehands LAPD and LASD have license plate frames that do the same

   • Embed this notice
     kiwi (kiwi@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 03:12:07 JST kiwi

     in reply to

     • legraLeGra

     @atthenius @inthehands "We can't possibly know if this state policy is as racist as it looks on its face" is not the gotcha you think it is: you're baking apologia for the state violence of displacement and environmental racism into your response rather than seeking to actually confront it. In any case this is a particularly hilarious derailment attempt to be reading here in DC, where we literally collect $0 from commuters for their moving violations, so we *know* the entire financial burden falls on folks in the neighborhood:

     https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland-virginia-drivers-dont-face-penalties-unpaid-dc-camera-tickets/65-6320057a-e45b-428a-ab3f-fd3e1301c669

     Paul Cantrell repeated this.
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     legraLeGra (atthenius@fediscience.org)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 03:12:07 JST legraLeGra

     in reply to

     • kiwi

     @kiwi @inthehands

     For safer streets, design changes are preferable over a la carte enforcement - automated or otherwise.

   • Embed this notice
     legraLeGra (atthenius@fediscience.org)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 03:12:10 JST legraLeGra

     in reply to

     • kiwi

     @kiwi @inthehands

     Communities of color tend to have more roadways and more VMT from (wealthier, non minority) folks passing through (vast AQ EJ lit).
     Thus, it is not surprising that majority minority neighborhoods would have more red light tickets issued. But it is unclear the demographics of the person receiving the ticket.

     Did propublica get the zip codes / demographics folks being ticketed, or those where the ticket was issued? Latter is simple to get, former not so easy.

   • Embed this notice
     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 03:12:47 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • kiwi
     • legraLeGra

     @atthenius @kiwi
     I certainly agree. When design solutions can work, they’re almost always a better choice.

     (That extends to designing fundamentally car-centric cities.)

   • Embed this notice
     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 03:16:27 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Aviva Gary

     @Aviva_Gary I usually feel that way about when I hear anything about how the police operate. We simply have to do better.

   • Embed this notice
     Aviva Gary (aviva_gary@noc.social)'s status on Monday, 05-Jun-2023 03:16:28 JST Aviva Gary

     in reply to

     @inthehands I'm sorry... this is a thing 👀