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1. Embed this notice
   Jorge Castro (jorge@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:32:50 JST Jorge Castro

   Some people don't want to hear this but whatever:

   https://www.ypsidanger.com/the-distribution-model-is-changing/

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:32:47 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam

     @boilingsteam @jorge That hasn’t been my experience at all. No app I’ve installed recently has required any use of Flatseal whatsoever, and virtually all the apps I use are Flatpaks.

     It’s not perfect, but these preconceived notions need to stop. These problems are solved, theming, disk space usage, they’re non issues nowadays.

   • Embed this notice
     Gianni Rosato (gianni@disobey.net)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:32:47 JST Gianni Rosato

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • Boiling Steam

     @thelinuxEXP @boilingsteam @jorge Do you know if the Firefox Flatpak still defaults to xwayland, or does it use Wayland by default now? Only reason I still install Flatseal.

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:32:48 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     @thelinuxEXP @jorge flatpak integration in distros still sucks though. This is not a solved problem and you need shit like flatseal to make things work which is not user friendly at all. Pushing flatpak as if its a miracle is simply ignoring its multiple shortcomings

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:32:49 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     @jorge YES. Thank you! Packaging work being duplicated on multiple distros has to stop for these end user apps. It’s inefficient, creates more points of failure, and doesn’t bring any benefit to users.

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:14 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam
     • popey

     @boilingsteam @popey @jorge Not at all, you’re mistaking repos and packages.

     The repo model is wonderful, the way apps are fed into repos isn’t. Your OS shouldn’t decide if you get the latest update of an app. It shouldn’t decide if an app makes it to the repos either. Flatpak (and other similar formats) IS the innovation on the packaging space.

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:15 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @thelinuxEXP @popey @jorge

     No, I am just making you aware that what you are recommending is the Windows model, where you have one binary/package that works everywhere.

     That defeats all kind of innovation than can be created by multiple distros in terms of package managers and ways of packaging applications.

     Gianni Rosato repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:16 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @thelinuxEXP @popey @jorge

     Devs don't have to maintain packages on different distros. That's the job of package maintainers. You probably know that since you have been using Linux for so long.

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:16 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam
     • popey

     @boilingsteam @popey @jorge And that’s exactly the problem. Wasted time by people who could work on the actual system instead of on distributing applications made by someone else.

     If you truly don’t see how this is completely backwards (and was done exclusively because app developers couldn’t be bothered to support all distributions and their packaging formats), then you’re missing the whole point of Flatpak, and this conversation can’t go anywhere.

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:16 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @thelinuxEXP @popey @jorge

     > If you truly don’t see how this is completely backwards

     Maybe you should go back to using Windows if you consider the work of package maintainers on dozens of distros to be useless and backward...

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:16 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam
     • popey

     @boilingsteam @popey @jorge

     The strength of your arguments is incredible. I yield. « If you think there’s a problem and want to solve it, go back to Windows ». Nice. Have a nice day 😂😂

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:17 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @thelinuxEXP @popey @jorge

     Flatpak has its uses. I grant you that.

     But the model of "ship a distro with a few packages and let flatpak handle everything else" is very, very wrong and will bite everyone in the ass before they realize it.

     Linux was never held back by properly working distro-maintained repositories - it was, and still is a massive advantage vs what you have on Windows and MacOS to this day. And I don't see Windows users go "Oh shit, now that you have flatpak I will jump ship"

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:17 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam
     • popey

     @boilingsteam @popey @jorge Linux is held back by the fact that tons of people work on the same thing on different platforms instead of being able to make apps better, our desktops better, or the underlying system better, and thus implementing what’s missing for Windows or max users. Do you know how to free up that time? By packaging once instead of 10 times.

     It’s not the role of an OS to package and distribute apps. App developers should control that.

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:18 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam
     • popey

     @boilingsteam @popey @jorge And if you were an app developer or packager you would probably see Flatpak as a net positive as well.

     Like I said, Flatpak isn’t perfect, and it won’t replace regular packages for everyone overnight. But it is the way forward if we ever want to be able to focus on what is holding Linux back.

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:19 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam
     • popey

     @boilingsteam @popey @jorge I hope that you notice you’re arguing in bad faith? Wine ran a LOT of games. Lutris has been around since before Proton. I gamed on Linux before Proton, I’ve been doing that since 2006 😂

     Flatpak breaks a few things, that are being fixed, but fixes the app packaging and distribution supply chain. You’re taking one small problem to justify why we shouldn’t solve one of the biggest issue of the Linux desktop…

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:19 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @thelinuxEXP @popey @jorge

     It's not one small problem. I can come up with a longer list if you want to. Try flatpak on ARM with Linux. You will see that most apps won't work because they only have x86_64 arch supported in the first place, which is nonsensical since Linux runs on pretty much any kind of hardware these days.

     I have been playing on Linux since 2007, so yes, I also know the world of gaming before Proton. And it was much worse, so Proton is clearly a NET positive.

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:20 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam
     • popey

     @boilingsteam @popey @jorge It can do 99% of it, and on top of that it’s more secure, easier for developers.

     This reasoning is just… weird. Wayland has been around for longer, and some use cases aren’t filled yet. The Linux desktop isn’t ready for 100% of people either. Do you also apply this reasoning to Proton? It can’t play 100% of games, and Wine has been around for 30 years.

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:20 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @thelinuxEXP @popey @jorge Where did I imply a problem with the percentage of use cases? I specifically mentioned that some use cases are completely broken by Flakpak and there is no sign of them being fixed.

     I don't understand the analogy with Proton. When a game works with Proton, it works, you don't have half of its features missing or something.

   • Embed this notice
     Nick @ The Linux Experiment (thelinuxexp@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:20 JST Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     in reply to

     • Boiling Steam
     • popey

     @boilingsteam @popey @jorge Ehhhh that’s just not true. When a game runs with proton, it might lack the cutscenes, or it might lack half the performance, or the multiplayer mode.

     And again, you’re taking your one KeepassXC issue and assuming every app has the same problem. It doesn’t. As of right now, Flatpak does its job better than Proton does it own. It’s just weird to criticize one and not the other for the same problem.

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:20 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @thelinuxEXP @popey @jorge

     Proton makes games work on Linux where they could not work before. We are going from 0 to thousands of games that work.

     Flatpak is taking packages that were working perfectly well in their original distros in the first place, and breaking their features to fix their container model. We got from apps having ZERO issues to many apps not working anymore as intended.

     I hope you do notice that bringing Proton on the table is an awful analogy.

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:22 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @popey @thelinuxEXP @jorge People keep saying that "these things take time to be fixed with Flatpak" but it's not like Flatpak is some kind of fresh flower anymore. It's been around since 2015. 7 years later, it still can't do what regular packages can.

   • Embed this notice
     popey (popey@ubuntu.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:23 JST popey

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • Boiling Steam

     @boilingsteam @thelinuxEXP @jorge Jeez dude, get a grip. It's not working as designed. That's a bug. Whether Keepassxc say it is or not, it is. It's a bug in the design, or the implementation. It's not a massive catastrophe that means Flatpak is completely unusable. It's one application not working well when confined. It'll be fixed, but not everything gets fixed immediately. These things take time.

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:24 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • popey

     @popey @thelinuxEXP @jorge its not a bug. Keepassxc devs say by themselves it cant work currently with flatpak. So flatpak breaks a very legitimate use.

   • Embed this notice
     popey (popey@ubuntu.social)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:25 JST popey

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment
     • Boiling Steam

     @boilingsteam @thelinuxEXP @jorge Dude, that's just a bug. Once fixed it's fixed for everyone in every distro. Do you think there are no integration bugs in any other packages? Think debs, rpms and the aur are some kind of panacea? It's just software. It can be fixed.

   • Embed this notice
     Boiling Steam (boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 15:33:26 JST Boiling Steam

     in reply to

     • Nick @ The Linux Experiment

     @thelinuxEXP @jorge this is no preconceived notion at all. This is me using flatpak and finding many issues when it comes to having basic expectations. Like keepassxc, good luck trying to make it work with a flatpaked firefox.