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Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:59:53 JST Chris Trottier

Wanting Meta to abide by open standards is not “working with Meta”.

What kind of world do we live in where open web advocates don’t want companies to abide by standards?

In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 11:59:53 JST from calckey.social permalink
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  Louie 🦭 (justyourbud@blahaj.zone)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:07:51 JST Louie 🦭
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet@calckey.social
  An open web but only for independent nerds
  
  I get where people are coming from, but it’s so clearly against the whole point of an open protocol. It’s just part of making something open, you’re unleashing it for anyone to use whether you like it or not and you can’t gatekeep it. I don’t care whether or not any instance I’m on blocks them, but it’s not mine to say whether they’re allowed to use something that open to use.
  
  Email would’ve gone absolutely nowhere like it did it it hadn’t been open like it is.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:07:51 JST permalink
  
  Chris Trottier likes this.
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  ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:09:01 JST ophiocephalic 🐍
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet
  Some of us don't give a shit whether Meta "abide by open standards" or not. What we want is to have absolutely nothing to do with them
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:09:01 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:09:01 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - ophiocephalic 🐍
  @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social Then block them. You can do that.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:09:01 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:12:22 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - Christo
  @christo@dice.camp If they’re not abiding by open standards, that is a problem.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:12:22 JST permalink
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  Christo (christo@dice.camp)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:12:23 JST Christo
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet I mean, of they don't abide by the standards, there will be consequences of one form or another, right?
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:12:23 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:26:39 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - ophiocephalic 🐍
  @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social No, this is about you desiring that an open protocol not be open. Well, too bad. The W3C already validated it as a web standard.
  
  And as I’ve said previously, a Fediblock is unlikely to happen. Maybe kolectiva.social will do it. Maybe a few other servers. And honestly, good on them for that choice.
  
  But you’re not going to convince everyone.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:26:39 JST permalink
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  ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:26:40 JST ophiocephalic 🐍
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet
  The problem with this boilerplate answer of yours is that it's an individualistic solution to a collective problem, like telling someone worried about global warming to go recycle. We're all in the fediverse together, so if you decide it's in the interests of your career to collaborate with Zuckerberg, everyone you federate with is also sucked into his surveillance machine
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:26:40 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:42:20 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - ophiocephalic 🐍
  @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social Sorry, when did I say “Meta is cool and good”?
  
  You really just made that up, and I’m not entertaining such nonsense further.
  
  Good grief. No one thinks “Meta is cool and good.”
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:42:20 JST permalink
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  ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:42:21 JST ophiocephalic 🐍
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet
  Actually, what you and Evan have done today is work hard to convince everyone else that Meta is cool and good because they adopt "open standards". No one else cares about that right now. What we see are ActivityPub specialists who are well-positioned if the big boys adopt their specialization. What we don't see is the slightest concern for the fact that this community may about to be torn apart, or any of our very real worries about Meta's appropriation and predation of it. But go on and keep harping on about "open standards".
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:42:21 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:50:42 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  
  Some of the replies I’m getting today are absolutely bonkers to the point that people are literally writing fan fiction.
  
  I’m not working with Meta. I’ve never spoken to anyone at Meta regarding ActivityPub. There’s no conspiracy to convince everyone that Meta is “good and cool”.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:50:42 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:58:53 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  
  I’ve told people that if they want to block Meta, they should block Meta. Have at it.
  
  But speaking as a realist, Fediblock is unlikely. At least out of the gate.
  
  There are 24,000 nodes on the Fediverse. Good luck convincing everyone who operates a node to block #Barcelona.
  
  Hell, good luck convincing the big servers to block them.
  
  I realize many of you believe Fediblock is a miracle cure-all panacea, but it isn’t.
  
  Now if you’re serious about the Fediverse replacing Big Social—as I am—what’s the best tool? I believe there should be a migration path from Meta.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 12:58:53 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:02:27 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - damian willcox ☃️
  @dorkboycomics It’s ridiculous. If I were trying to convince people that Meta is “good and cool”, why would I be building stuff that competes with Barcelona?
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:02:27 JST permalink
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  damian willcox ☃️ (dorkboycomics@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:02:37 JST damian willcox ☃️
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet “conspiracy theories™ - not just for Twitter anymore” 🤣
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:02:37 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:28:02 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - Cloud Dweller
  @clouddweller@raccoon.place Did you read my initial post? Again, who’s working with Meta?
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:28:02 JST permalink
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  Cloud Dweller (clouddweller@raccoon.place)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:28:15 JST Cloud Dweller
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet if you work with meta you will be taken over. Make your choice carefully. Many of us are not here for it.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:28:15 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:29:01 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - dragfyre
  @dragfyre@mastodon.sandwich.net This took work!
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:29:01 JST permalink
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  dragfyre (dragfyre@mastodon.sandwich.net)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:29:05 JST dragfyre
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet I made a thing for you to help commemorate this wonderful day
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 13:29:05 JST permalink
  Attachments
  1. The "how do you do, fellow kids" meme, but instead of Steve Buscemi it's atomicpoet's profile picture. He's wearing a shirt with the Meta logo on it, holding a skateboard with the Facebook and Instagram logos on it, and the text in the caption is "How do you do, fellow Fedizens?" Oh, and 1000 hours in MS paint.
    https://mastodon.sandwich.net/system/media_attachments/files/110/444/353/387/237/349/original/a1fd297cd335c40e.jpg
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 14:25:47 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - Gunther
  @gunther@fosstodon.org I don’t know about formal account migration but interoperability means people would (in theory) be able to use a non-Meta server to talk to a Meta server. That’s a plausible migration path right there.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 14:25:47 JST permalink
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  Gunther (gunther@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 14:25:48 JST Gunther
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet Sincere question: How's exactly is Barcelona a "migration path from Meta"? Even if they're adopting ActivityPub, will they allow account migrations to other Fedi platforms? Many current Fedi platforms do not support this feature so no reason to think Meta's will, right?
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 14:25:48 JST permalink
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  Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:47:32 JST Chris Trottier
  in reply to
  - Asaf
  @svc64@tooot.im Again, “embrace, extend, extinguish” doesn’t work, especially for protocols.
  
  https://calckey.social/notes/9fa862hz3a
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:47:32 JST permalink
  Attachments
  1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: calckey.social
    
    Chris Trottier (@atomicpoet)
    
    First off, @evan@cosocial.ca sees this from the perspective of someone who's co-authored #ActivityPub. It's his job to spur and enable adoption -- and that's something he's done exceptionally well for 20 years. Of course he wants to help Meta *abide by open standards*. Which, even if you dislike Meta, you would hope they would do. My perspective is as one who is building products that compete with Meta. Ideally, I would like people who use Meta to migrate away from there and instead use #Calckey, #GreatApe, and the numerous options available on #SpaceHost. But even from the perspective of a competitor, I want interoperability with #Barcelona. And even more, I want interoperability based on open standards. Yes, yes, yes -- "embrace, extend, extinguish". At this point, that phrase is a broken record. But every time that phrase comes up, I keep asking folks: when has the "extinguish" part of "embrace, extend, extinguish" ever worked? People say #RSS, but RSS is still here and I use it every day. Hell, Calckey even has an RSS widget and it works like a charm. RSS is not extinguished. People also say #XMPP, but I can run an XMPP server right now -- no problems. People say XMPP "died" because it's no longer as popular now, but is it because Meta and Google dropped support, or is it because Slack, Discord, Signal, WhatsApp, and even Matrix have come along to eclipse it in popularity? Regardless, even if XMPP is no longer so popular, it's not extinguished. The most ludicrous example of "extinguish" people bring up is Gmail's dominance of email. But email is the most popular communications technology we have today, even though it's 50 years old. What's more, look at the raw stats. Gmail is only 18% of the email server market -- that's no monopoly. Go have a look at the stats for yourselves: https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/email_server Suffice it to say, email is not "extinguished". The pessimistic notion that we will "lose" by allowing Meta to interoperate with ActivityPub -- again, an open standard -- just doesn't convince me. In fact, if Meta is adopting standard ActivityPub, I think "losing" is impossible. With Meta adopting ActivityPub, we're not losing. We're winning. We're not conceding to Meta by adopting their proprietary APIs for interoperability. They're conceding to *us* by adopting ActivityPub. Again, I'm not saying you should all federate with #Barcelona. I'm saying that Meta adopting an open standard that allows for interoperability is a win because, remember, they're adopting our standard. We're not adopting theirs. Some also ask, "But what if Meta does a bait-and-switch and drops ActivityPub support?" Well, there's kind of precedence for that. Not enough people realize this, but Google once adopted the predecessor of ActivityPub. Specifically, they used OStatus for Google Buzz. Certainly, like many Google products, Google Buzz shuttered. But the development for an open social media protocol lived on, and we all use what was developed *right now*. No doubt, if Barcelona becomes Meta's Google Buzz, ActivityPub will live on. It will still be developed. We'll keep using it. In the meantime, I'll consider ways to help Meta users migrate to platforms that I believe are better.
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  Asaf (svc64@tooot.im)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:47:39 JST Asaf
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet I disagree. Having Meta in the fediverse can help them start an "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" kind of strategy. Where for example, people move to Meta because maybe they have some advantage and then the fediverse becomes more and more centralized.
  If I were an instance admin, I'd block Meta.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 28-May-2023 15:47:39 JST permalink
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  Stephen Foskett (sfoskett@techfieldday.net)'s status on Monday, 29-May-2023 02:40:39 JST Stephen Foskett
  in reply to
  
  @atomicpoet I’m old enough to remember when people were panicking about companies joining THE INTERNET and ruining it. Now some might argue that they did, but lots of good stuff happened here over the last three decades too. And here we are building our own social network.
  Like you I think it’s not the end of times for Meta to connect. Just an opportunity to legitimize ActivityPub and for more people to see the green grass on our side.
  
  In conversation Monday, 29-May-2023 02:40:39 JST permalink
  
  Chris Trottier likes this.

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