Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 01:07:38 JST Alexandre Oliva
   wake up, europeans and USians
   https://gnusocial.net/url/16830751
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 02:48:44 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     promoting a coup d'état is kind of opposite to recognizing a country's sovereignty, though. provoking aggression by a third party to attract the victim to your lap is quite an effective tool in the global empire tricks handbook. but yeah, people who haven't been paying attention and who're bombarded by propaganda may fall for that.
   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 02:48:50 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo the problem with articles like these (there have been quite a few) is that they fail to recognize the sovereignty aspect of countries in joining NATO. One would need to argue that countries like Poland, Romania, etc. joined NATO without support of their population. Similarly at this point the majority of the Ukrainians stand behind their country joining the EU and also NATO. Without addressing this aspect, it is hard to convincingly put such blame on the US.

   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:33:23 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo whether the US role has been a good one or not is definitely debatable. Whether a coup d'était was promoted is different from whether one took place. That the elections since 2014 ended up being fair is not based on propaganda, but on evidence. While I can agree that the US did not do optimal diplomacy, there are other arguments that are more convincing that ended up triggering the war than the US provoking it.
     A book I can recommend is Marusya (Maroussia) by Marko Vovchok.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:33:23 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     I've read a lot about how fair elections get denounced as unfair by US-mandated observers, and vice-versa. I've lived through obviously stolen elections that were claimed to be fair, and through AFAICT fair elections that were claimed to be stolen. it takes more than propaganda disguised as evidence for me to believe this sort of claim.
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 21:51:23 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     that essence is obvious enough to me that I don't feel compelled to seek the book out, though I'd be interested in having a look if I happen to run into a copy.
     now, does it seem to you that choosing masters, whether US/NATO or Russia, and being used as pawn and territory in a proxy war amounts to getting the freedom to be themselves? various peoples have just been swindled out of their autonomy.
   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 21:51:24 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo that makes sense. In that case I hope you will get opportunities to travel to Ukraine and/or meet with Ukrainians. Maybe somebody from Ukraine could reply too. Of course if there turns out to be evidence showing unfairness of Ukrainian elections that would be good to share.

     I hope you find time to read the book. It is written by a Russian writer who moved to Ukraine. The essence is that Ukrainians simply want the freedom to be themselves in between Russia and Poland.

   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 29-May-2023 12:52:39 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo here is a copy of the book:
     https://archive.org/details/MaroussiaAMaidOfUkraine
     (Its from 1890, now public domain.)

     Throughout history Ukraine often ended up in situations where they had to choose one side over another side.
     They have a lot of (classic) literature that relates to freedom. There were few moments in history they really had autonomy. Given the history of Ukraine "have just been" is sadly not accurate and the US/NATO are offering more outlook towards freedom and autonomy than any party prior.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Monday, 29-May-2023 12:52:39 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     thanks for the link. this is older than the stories I heard about how the Russians mistreated grandma's family in Ukraine after the revolution.
     I don't buy the notion that US/NATO is offering anything good. it went to great lengths to drive both Ukraine and Russia to a fight that's good for neither, without any regard for the amount of suffering that this ploy would bring onto the Ukrainian people. it was solid if Machiavelian strategy: it weakened Europe's ties to Russia, isolated Russia from the West, reinforced and exploited Russophobia in several Eastern- and Northern-European countries to bring them onto NATO's laps for subservience to US's interests, and got the US people to pay for the war machine to keep running, offering weaponry and ammo to Ukraine, while Ukraine, after being forced out of neutrality in a treaty that neither Ukraine nor NATO had any intent to comply with, gets bombed to death and broken into pieces. and yet Ukraine is now relying on that who plotted its own destruction because it offers more outlook towards freedom? mafias have treated its "protected" victims no worse than that.
   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Thursday, 01-Jun-2023 10:14:28 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo
     Regarding Russophobia, the pattern is older than any US involvement. The US/NATO are the first arming the Ukrainian army themselves. Formally the Budapest Memorandum binds the US and UK to supporting Ukraine.

     We have to see how the future will be and do our best to support Ukraine and similar places. It is true that we should be cautious regarding the US intentions. Russia's own actions and history sadly made it a far worse option prior to any involvement from US/NATO.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Thursday, 01-Jun-2023 10:14:28 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     it's not like US, UK or even Ukraine care much about what binds them, is it? they've entered agreements without any intent to fulfill them. respect for human rights is relevant or not depending on whether the alleged offense is committed by opponents or allies.
     provoking the war, blocking diplomatic moves that could have prevented and then put and end to it, and arming Ukraine so that the war lasts longer and the destruction is more thorough... none of these have been moves that helped Ukraine, I'm sorry to say. Ukraine people are being killed and the country being torn apart as consequence of US's power plays
     US's own actions and history of meddling with and promoting very ugly dictatorships in its LatAm playground don't make it look any better than Russia, really, except perhaps for those who don't know that history, or wish to pretend being under the rule of their own empire makes it better than being under the rule of others' empires
   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 04:28:51 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo your points regarding the US meddling on other continents are valid. For the idea you pose on Ukraine to be convincing, it would be important to elaborate why Russia is not the primary cause of the situation. At this point (Eastern) Europe does not trust Russia due to their past experience. Russia meddled in Europe, while the US gained a lot of trust with the Marshall Plan.

     How could Ukraine and maybe also Europe move to a situation with autonomy?

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 04:28:51 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     the most convincing reason for me to conclude that Russia was provoked and, really, forced into action is the amount of predictable negative consequences onto itself. setting aside the narratives that attempt to qualify putin as dumb or mad, the explanation of why he'd undertake such actions is that the perceived consequences of the alternatives were even worse. that, in turn, suggests a master plan designed by someone else to bring about just that reaction and its expected consequences. you just have to follow the trail to cui bono for the most reasonable guess of whose master plan it was, unless you'd believe that they're so incredibly lucky.
     as for pursuing autonomy, surely strengthening the organization through which the US keeps all these countries dependent is a step in the wrong direction. but I won't pretend I can beat US's strategists. I don't see a solution for this problem.
   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 07:24:45 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo I understand your conclusion, but it doesn't take all prior history and detailed facts on the ground into consideration. Generally the history of the Slavic countries is an interesting topic. One aspect that is relevant is for instance the treatment of the Ukrainian language in the occupied territories.

     What changes would NATO require so that all countries in it are on equal standing?

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 07:24:45 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     > all prior history and detailed facts on the ground into consideration
     
     back that up with history and facts that I'm supposedly leaving out, maybe? that would not only make your claim more credible, but also offer substance I could consider to change my mind. without that, we might as well just be arguing "no, you're wrong" indefinitely ;-)
     
     I don't know how NATO usually deals with national languages. on the one side of the Atlantic, the US are quite English-(self-)centric; on the other, Europe is a cauldron of different languages, so there's presumably some precedent policy that would have applied should Ukraine be or become part of NATO (which I personally find unlikely at this time, as that would drag them all into a thermonuclear war with Russia; it would at least solve global warning, human overpopulation, and funding retirement pensions :-)/2
     
     now, though language colonialism is surely a relevant expression of unjust power, I'm wary of its coming from either (or any) empire. I don't need to have a proposal of a solution or a grasp of this specific issue to perceive other manifestations of injustice and ongoing colonialism that I denounce herein. what I can say with certainty is that it would suck if Ukrainian were to become verboten just now that I finally started learning it formally (vs the little I picked up from conversations between grandma, mom and aunt back home when I was a kid)
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 19:14:58 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     thank you, I started taking lessons very recently, and this was probably the first time I had something in Ukrainian written to me in which I could recognize several of the words, to the point of getting a general idea of what you were getting at. but I probably still have years of learning ahead of me to be able to read or communicate in that language. sorry.
   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 19:14:59 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo це дуже цікаво що ви теж вивчатите українску мову!! Я думаю що це добрий можливість щоб підтримувати Україну. Мені ще треба богато вивчатите...

   • Embed this notice
     Julius Schwartzenberg (jschwart@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 20:06:39 JST Julius Schwartzenberg

     in reply to

     @lxo sounds like a good start! I wrote I'm still learning Ukrainian as well. I have studied Russian and a little bit of Polish prior though, which is helping a lot.
     I use GoldenDict on Trisquel as a dictionary btw. I'm always interested in more free tools that could help. In the past I used KWordQuiz to practice vocabulary.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 04-Jun-2023 20:06:39 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Julius Schwartzenberg
     thanks for the tips. I'm sort of looking forward to librelingo
     
     I can imagine how polish and russian would help learning ukrainian, but only by analogy, because I don't speak either of them