Abbie Normal
#Clojure introduced me to lispy languages
And one of the tools was Emacs Live
https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live
It was a .emacs folder that you could just drop in your home folder and that made Emacs a georgous IDE for Clojure
Requiring people to learn to deal with Emacs before they can write a single line of the language they're approaching is a stupid punishment
I wrote this after reading this thread
https://post.lurk.org/@celesteh/108948006491442054
bits :waifu:
@sarvo @worldsendless @abbienormal @maxxcan @parasurv nothing
Sarvo
@maxxcan@mastodon.social @worldsendless@qoto.org @abbienormal@floss.social @parasurv@mk.nixnet.social People use windows and Facebook apple android google etc. Because they have being trained and conditioned to do so. If we happen to for example teach kids to use terminals they would be proficient at vim when they be teenagers for example.
Nyan Max
@worldsendless @abbienormal @parasurv Apart from my personal opinion, I have been an IT teacher for some years and I have realized that the simpler the tools used to teach, the less people learn because we tend to resort to the law of minimum effort. I was 11 years old when I learned assembler and I'm not very smart, there was just nothing else.
(webdev Tory) :emacs:
@abbienormal @maxxcan @parasurv
"can introduce naive people to IT". I am interested in arguments about whether this is actually a good thing or not (the fact that we are talking here on Mastodon might indicate our bias on this point)
Abbie Normal
you seem not ready to accept that GUI tools can introduce naive people to IT
it's not only about education
it's about human nature
many humans find the cognitive style of GNU tools impractical
it's not their fault, as you seem to assume
Nyan Max
@abbienormal @parasurv it's not marketing, is a real problem in the high school and school in general. I recommed you to read this article about Chromebooks https://clarissalittler.github.io/2019/12/26/chromebooks.html
Abbie Normal
you are a professional among professionals
you used CL tools 20 years ago and you observe professional syadmins
we're obvioulsy not talking about the same target
GUI tools like VisualCode and PyCharm have a reason to exist
it's not only marketing
Nyan Max
@abbienormal @parasurv I don't think so. I remember when I only use command line in unix twenty years ago. The others programmers say me that I was used a old and difficult tools. Now most sysadmins have realized that the command line is better to work with. Even Microsoft have command line Unix in Windows 10 and announced as a major breakthrough
Abbie Normal
No
They use them because the cognitive style of Emacs is not good for everybody
Nyan Max
@abbienormal @parasurv the people use visual code or pycham or intellij because is the first tools that they have known. For that it's a problem that the people only learn to programming with that tools.
Abbie Normal
I was thinking of VisyalCode or how it's called
It's a GUI tool used by hordes of programmers
Same goes for PyCharm
Why do they exist ?
Are M$ and Intellij stupid ?
GUI tools are a thing for programmers too
Again: just because the journey offered by Emacs was ok for you that doesn't mean it's ok in general
In fact, it's leaving a ton of people in the dust
And again I would have personally been one of those left in the Dust
parasurv
@abbienormal@floss.social @maxxcan@mastodon.social I don't condemn it in general, but I don't think it's that essential for Emacs. When you learn stuff, it will be probably just a distraction for most people (like when you are learning a language and suddenly realize, you don't need subtitles for movies anymore). Of course learning takes time, and it all depends on the individual.
Many people recommend Emacs GUI for the first time, and I am in that camp too (mostly because Emacs in terminal is just not that great).
Abbie Normal
GUI has made computing a mass phenomenon
you're being a bit too fast in condemning it, in my opinion
just because GUIless tools are good for you doen't mean they're good in general
see here
https://floss.social/@abbienormal/108952017802346899
parasurv
@maxxcan@mastodon.social @abbienormal@floss.social Emacs is easy if you like using shortcuts, which is good anyway cause you don't have to deal with icons and menus, and all that stupid stuff that holds you back and makes you incredible slow.
Repetition makes you faster working with shortcuts. Once you make your setup work, it's way easier than to deal with GUI stuff, imo.
Nyan Max
@abbienormal Emacs is easy to use. Im not programmer and I use Emacs for to do all. Programming Clojure too
Abbie Normal
Because it is ?
Nyan Max
@abbienormal I don't understand why people so smart to programming think that Emacs is difficult to use.
bits :waifu:
@sarvo @worldsendless @abbienormal @maxxcan @parasurv t. is scared of pictures
Sarvo
@waifu@waifuism.life @worldsendless@qoto.org @abbienormal@floss.social @maxxcan@mastodon.social @parasurv@mk.nixnet.social t. Has been lobotomized by the Microsoft corporation
Ruina :gyate_tewi_run: :hamler:
bits :waifu:
@sarvo @worldsendless @abbienormal @maxxcan @parasurv if you see a person you can be 98% sure they don’t use linux
Sarvo
@waifu@waifuism.life @worldsendless@qoto.org @abbienormal@floss.social @maxxcan@mastodon.social @parasurv@mk.nixnet.social now that's actually nothing
bits :waifu:
@sarvo @worldsendless @abbienormal @maxxcan @parasurv remove the terminal and gnu+linux stocks will go up 500000% trust the plan
Sarvo
@waifu@waifuism.life @worldsendless@qoto.org @abbienormal@floss.social @maxxcan@mastodon.social @parasurv@mk.nixnet.social yes we are discussing why
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