Chris Trottier
#Bluesky is finally testing federation with "allow-listed servers".
They're finally taking the stop of decentralization.
Many people will naysay this. But it's absolutely better that they move to decentralization than *not* do it.
https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/5-5-2023-federation-architecture
Chris Trottier
For those who are technically inclined, this is how federation through #Bluesky's AT protocol will work.
It depends on three things:
1. Personal Data Server (PDS)
2. Big Graph Service (BGS)
3. App Views
This seems quite different from how federation through ActivityPub works.
Chris Trottier
For those who feel that #Bluesky's federation is complex -- and it is -- here's a simplified understanding.
1. There's a big firehose of data
2. It goes through the "prism" of app view
3. Then there's a curated feed of what the user sees
Basically, this whole thing depends on algorithms.
Chris Trottier
From a dev perspective, this will probably be a big problem.
Right now, an ActivityPub server can be operated on a Raspberry Pi.
You can deploy one inexpensively with minimal investment.
Personally, I'm running multiple ActivityPub servers that serve many disparate needs.
Starting up a BGS will probably be out of reach for most people.
Chris Trottier
AT protocol's method of federation isn't server-to-server.
It's personal-data-server (PDS) to big graph service (BGS) to labeler / app view / feed gen.
And I imagine the BGS *might* federate with other BGS.
Yeah, not only is this complicated, the BGS could prove problematic.
Chris Trottier
I'm wondering how easy this is going to be be.
From both the description and diagram, it looks complex.
And complexity usually means a whole lot of effort will be needed.
Chris Trottier
So again, I'm glad that Bluesky is building out federation. Their decentralization efforts don't look like vaporware.
Do I think Bluesky's method for federation is better than what's current on ActivityPub? No, I don't.
And based on what they've revealed, I don't think AT protocol will win the "node battle" against ActivityPub.
ekana
@atomicpoet Have they changed? Because the PDS was supposed to be able to federate with each other, at least that's how it is depicted in the Docs.
Chris Trottier
I re-posted this thread on #Bluesky, and they're not happy about what I have to say.
Chris Trottier
The response to this thread on Bluesky seems to be, “Saying that regular people should be able to afford a BGS is like saying they should afford to operate a web search engine”.
Indeed, that’s what I’m saying.
Funny enough, the Searx project makes this possible.
James Dreben
@atomicpoet@mastodon.social Do you think there will be a bridge between AT and ActivityPub?
Matthew Sheffield
@atomicpoet I think you mean 'step' instead of 'stop?'
Chris Trottier
@Ciantic We’ll see about that last part.
Jari Pennanen
@atomicpoet I read the same post
1.) I noticed that they plan to open a federation in the future for "all". Hopefully no allow-listing anymore after that.
2.) You can somehow use server-to-server federation, even if it's not default:
> "BGSs instead of server-to-server isn’t prescriptive. The protocol is actually explicitly designed to work both ways."
Chris Trottier
@mattsheffield Thanks for the correction.
Zav
@atomicpoet @mike saying finally as if they've been around for decades.
Chris Trottier
@lucid00 I was told by Jake Gold, who works at Bluesky, that a PDS could work on a Raspberry Pi. A BGS, not so much.
Lucid00
@atomicpoet I'm not sure "resource-demanding" means it can't run on a Raspberry Pi.
Nor does it sound necessary from the descriptions.
This all sounds like Google AMP .sxg for posts and BGS's are just relay servers (like Google is for AMP .sxg).
My only worry is how a private page would work, but nobody seems to really have this sorted out (except for maybe SSB and that comes with large tradeoffs).
Chris Trottier
@lucid00 @skotchygut From what I gather from Bluesky engineers, they're more like CDNs with some indexing capabilities.
Lucid00
@skotchygut @atomicpoet it looks like BGS's are just optional relays, so I'm guessing no.
joel b
joel b
Viktor Nagornyy
@atomicpoet Thanks for breaking it down. Basically, BlueSky miniaturized how the internet works 🤣 PDS = PC, BGS = Google, App View = Google's search algorithm. Nothing new, technically.
Chris Trottier
@viktor That's a pretty good summary.
Chris Trottier
@acjay @davidgarywood What are you looking for in an algorithm?
Alan Johnson
@davidgarywood @atomicpoet to be honest, algorithms is a big missing piece of Mastodon for me. I just don't want to be beholden to one billionaire's algorithm.
Dave ✨
@atomicpoet “the marketplace of algorithms” has a big “debate me in the marketplace of ideas” tone to it, to me
Chris Trottier
@swansinflight Yeah, that's probably it. I'll fix that.
swansinflight
@atomicpoet@mastodon.social oh previous paste?
swansinflight
@atomicpoet@mastodon.social why isn't your alt text matching the screenshot text?
Jesse Karmani
@atomicpoet glad to see it! The first attempts at a new thing can take a while to work out, so I was getting worried that since they hadn’t started this already, it could get deprioritized. I’ll be keeping my eye on their progress.
Chris Trottier
@strypey @thull @mike Specifically, Bluesky has been around since 2019.
It’s one year younger than ActivityPub’s validation by the W3C.
Strypey
@thull
> saying finally as if they've been around for decades.
They've been around for years and had more funding than any decentralized social web startup since Diaspora. Probably more than all fediverse software put together. Putting up a beta without even finishing the federation protocol, let alone their implementation, is kind of embarrassing. Particularly because it also meant their moderation system was unfinished.
Zav
@atomicpoet They literally only even have employees since 2021.
It's an invit-only beta with <100.000 people. There's no "finally" here. They are right on pace.
Mecha Code 👺
@atomicpoet Wow, near thread. I feel like we still haven't hit the sweet spot. ActivityPub is nice because of the low hardware req, but the data accumulated for say a Mastodon instance is still large.
AT/Nostr don't fix this, but it's the defining challenge I think.
Chris Trottier
@thull At least they have employees. Most ActivityPub projects are made by volunteers.
Calckey has no employees.
Chris Trottier
@acjay @davidgarywood Have you tried #Calckey? It has the following feeds:
1. Home
2. Local
3. Social
4. Global
There’s also Explore > Featured which gives you the zeitgeist.
And there’s lists and antennas to follow stuff you’re interested in.
As a bonus, there’s “Channels” for participating in topical conversations.
Alan Johnson
@atomicpoet @davidgarywood Typically something a lot like the feeds in most commercial social media apps. The right balance of
- stuff from folks I intentionally follow, with some adjustment to balance out differences in how often people post
- stuff I might actually be interested in discovering
- the zeitgeist
I think the strict reverse chronological default Mastodon feed just doesn't do it for me.
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