Børge
So, is Joel the most evil person in the history of the world, or is it fine if the human race goes extinct?
It almost has to be one or the other, right?
I get the criticism of the Firefly's plan, that it seems half-assed, that they should explore other avenues before killing the one known immune person in the world. Still, that was probably done just to make the narrative more compelling. The point is the trolley problem, not the feasability, I think. #TheLastOfUs
Børge
Let's say Joel was knocked out for months or years and came to as all available doctors, after careful research and consideration had concluded that the surgery was necessary and likely to succeed. Would he really have acted differently? If not, the justification of Joel based on the unlikelyhood of the plan working seems artificial. The whole setting is constructed by the writers to create tension, not to be realistic. A life for humanity, that's the question.
Børge
Still, even if we take the whole story into account, if killing the one immune person before doing all kinds of tests on her, making a solid plan to get the cure created, stored and distributed, etc, really was a terrible idea worth stopping — was really killing so many of the world's few remaining humans, including a desperately needed doctor, the way to go about it? If the Fireflies are half-assed, isn't Joel too? Take some hostages and negotiate, maybe?
Børge
None of this would've happened of course. They wouldn't have wasted a non renewable grenade on 2 people, they would've tied Joel up, etc, etc. Most narrative trolley problems would not actually happen IRL
All the things leading up to these inescapable trolley problems are choices made by the writers to create this dilemma, to make a compelling, thrilling story
They are as unrealistic as the "would you rather" party games, but they impact us more because of the story
Børge
This is extremely important to remember. Because stories like "torture a guy or a bomb will kill thousands" or "pick one person to throw out of our life boat or we all die" can easily influence our world view.
Stories sneak in under our skin, without us noticing. Do not be nudged into thinking we have to be hard and uncaring to survive. Reality is seldom a trolley problem with only two tracks. Rapport works better than torture, collaboration better than competition.
Børge
Anyway, I'm antinatalist and think the combined suffering of humanity through history far outweighs the happiness. This will only be exacerbated in a post-apocalyptic world*
Still I was disturbed when I saw the online comments, and heard on the podcast that of test players 50% of non-parents & 100% of parents agreed with Joel's choice
So many are willing to extinguish consciousness? And I don't think that's based on a philosophical stance about how it's not worth it
Børge
* Though hundreds of millions, even billions, still today lives lifes without access to clean drinking water, sanitation, access to health care, safe, healthy, dry, clean places to relax, time to relax, enough food for themselves and their children, or security in the knowledge that they will have enough food, etc, etc.
The post-apocalypse is already here, and it's always been here — it's just not evenly distributed.
Pierce ⚖️ 🇺🇸 🌵
Consider that, for Joel, humanity is already non-existent as a result of the life he has led/things he has seen/done. Through Joel’s eyes, the saving of Ellie is the saving of the only humanity he knows.
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@rcpierce Countless humans have lived just as terrible lifes, or worse, as Joel, throughout history. Even at this very moment. Is it then morally ok for them to doom humanity to extinction, if that would preserve the one good thing in their lives for a while? Sure, you might argue it does, I might even be inclined to think that that would be the best in the long run. But I still don't think that justifies that kind of mass murder.
Børge
All that said I'm excited about games getting more recognition as a form of culture and art that can convey interesting, beautiful, thoughtful and thought provoking stories. Still, they are an extremely unaccessible form of culture, seeing as they demand expensive equipment and a lot of time to consume. Interestingly making a series out of The Last of Us is a form of democratization of the story. And before I watched that I watched the game as a playtrough online.
Børge
Oh, btw. It annoys me quite a lot that the limited number of humans left in the world never seems to be openly adressed in these post-apocalyptic stories. Not that I've seen/read all that many, but in those I have consumed there's a lot of armed conflict with people killing each other, but no talking about this context. Never like "hey, we don't know how many people are left, could we talk about this?" or "what if we just killed 3% of all human beings?" #TheLastOfUs
Børge
@lyngordon Yes, you are touching on something very important here! @pluralistic talks about this, how our portrayal of human nature in fiction about apocalypses can get us to believe people are inherently bad, and then that can become a self fulfilling prophecy. When people actually mostly want to help in real world disasters. But as you say, this bleak view can also be actively exploited, telling you if you are good, you need to be ready to destroy the bad guys.
Asbjørn Flø
@forteller and often on the same myth that NRA espouses about one good man with a gun... ?
Asbjørn Flø
@forteller most (American) post-acolyptic fiction is very bleak in its vision of humanity. It's seldom about rebuilding community, often more about how there is always a thin veneer of humanity over the beast. I guess it is founded on a Hobbesian view of the world?
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