Fen C
I don't want ideological fantasy that's never going to happen; I want actual, successful left-wing thinking *made real*. That's why I'm a #SocialDemocrat not a #Socialist.
Full-on #Socialism isn't compatible with #HumanNature so will never happen; #SocialDemocracy is, so *can* happen (IMO).
So, albeit reluctantly, I agree with much of what Daniel Finkelstein says in his article.
Alexandre Oliva
Jorge Stolfi
@fencoul @rcbevans @duckwhistle @westtexasjesus
You should beware that the word "#Socialism" has a different meaning in the US than in the rest of the world, including the UK. In the US it has been turned into a synonym of "#Communism". Elsewhere it has a much broader meaning, roughly what "#LIberalism" means in the US. It includes all instances of "#SocialDemocracy".
Unfortunately I found that out only after many hot and unnecessary tweet wars...
Fen C
@rcbevans @duckwhistle @westtexasjesus
? Nordic-style #SocialDemocracy would suit me fine - hey, y' can even point at 1+ actual working examples!! (Try pointing at a working, sustainable example of full-on #Socialism.)
That's likely why I'm a #SocialDemocrat not a #Socialist - I prefer 'functioning reality' to 'dreams and perpetual failure'...
rcbevans
@fencoul @duckwhistle @westtexasjesus and you’re right, there are many forms of “the left”, but neoliberalism isn’t one of them, even Nordic social democracy which preserves capitalism as its foundation.
Fen C
@rcbevans @duckwhistle @westtexasjesus
? More leaning left ≠ more socialists. There are many forms of 'left' and socialism is one of the most tried-and-failed. Some good, reusable ideas, yes; but the whole ideology, nah. Plus - it scares #AverageVoters* sh:tless.
[* NB: #Labour members are not #AverageVoters.]
rcbevans
@duckwhistle @fencoul @westtexasjesus Unachievable in your opinion. Prior to any great societal shift or revolution there have always been and will always be those who think such change is outlandish and impossible. The deck is definitely stacked against socialism because it is those who hold most the cards who stand to lose their unfair advantage, but I don’t see it as impossible, there’s ever increasingly more of us than them.
rcbevans
@fencoul @westtexasjesus I'm not smoking anything. Whilst life is undeniably better for citizens living in a Social Democracy vs what the UK/US has, it just moves the problem where it's more palatable to the citizens benefiting from it, rather than fixing the failings inherent to Capitalism as a system. This is also why those hard won rights erode over time through austerity politics. http://tidewaterdsa.com/concealed-imperialism-the-true-face-of-social-democracy/
🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳
@rcbevans @fencoul @westtexasjesus
You will never get the entire population of a country to agree on what's best. There will always be movement back and forth along all political axis.
A fully Libertarian society is not achievable nor is a fully socialist one. Your argument is essentially that some people will try to move society to wards an impossible goal in one direction, so we should try to move it to an impossible goal in the other.
rcbevans
@westtexasjesus @fencoul I would argue that greed in the form of resource hoarding is a self preservation mechanism from times of scarcity. This regularly rears its head during crisis with people hoard hand sanitizer or TP. Under capitalism people defend some having more than others because we're constantly told there have to be losers without enough, so people must do what one can to make sure they're not the one without.
rcbevans
@westtexasjesus @fencoul In Social Democracies the losers are moved to be those outside the country, invisible in every day life to avoid making citizens feel too uncomfortable about the life they maintain at the expense of those in the global south.
Fen C
? What're you smoking?
WestTexasJesus
@fencoul @rcbevans the question we must ask. Is greed a natural component of homo sapiens or is it purely learned behaviour? It could be a natural instinct that evolved for our survival. One thing I have noticed is that greed is what corrupts all economic systems and to mitigate or diminish that greed is important for our species to at least provide or nurture all people in a society.
rcbevans
@fencoul whilst I don’t disagree that this is a nature as-is is incompatible with socialism, I do disagree that human nature is fixed, and if the political, judicial and economic institutions which preserve the current system were changed, “human nature” would change along with them. That doesn’t mean this doesn’t make it more challenging and that the changes wouldn’t tend to revert if not protected, just that the making the changes is against nature, not the change itself.
Fen C
#Neoliberal #Capitalism didn't invent #Greed; that was around before we could even spell 'neoliberal'.
rcbevans
@fencoul human nature isn’t a fixed of beliefs or behaviors, but is fluid, changing with the material conditions and superstructure of the society we live in, reflecting social norms. Neoliberal capitalism teaches us that human nature is to be selfish and greedy and that everything is a zero sum transaction where someone has to win and someone has to lose, and that some deserve to be billionaires whilst the people who’s resources were taken or who did the work are impoverished. 1/2
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