@bahi0u oh i'm aware of that, i use a lot of simplified forms to draw already and i do use reference material for many things. its just i need a lot more practice and refinement in the details and such. and i need to get a good feel for proportions from various poses. but its fine, i've got all the time in the world to work on that and i don't want to rush myself anyways. but thanks for the advice. as always you are super helpful :neocat_heart: