@djb (1+3) He hasn't said "don't form a working group", and he hasn't objected to the charter. Yes, he's annoyed by the conversation. (2) Yes. Deb has far less conflict than most industry participants, as she is retiring. If the IESG applied the standard you suggest, no industry or government participant could serve, putting an end to the IETF and any industry-driven effort. That would leave who exactly?