Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:11 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   The group of people who are trying to divide the fediverse seem to have reached a new low.. They have a tool that lists how many instances block a particular instance, but it is highly manipulative.

   For starters it is hand curated.. so they exclude blocks against their own instances and only includes instances they actually dislike.

   Worse yet they curate a list ordered by "most blocked".. problem is they use the number of instances that block. They game the system by having large number of single-user instances. So instances in the top 50 may only be blocked by a few hundred people but still appear as if the blocks are significant....

   This is why we need transparency, its why we need the https://UFoI.org

   #mastoadmin #fediblock @ufoi #UFoI

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:14:48 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • homo stultens
     where do you get the notion that it's a walled garden, though? joining and leaving is allowed at will, and it's not like blocking those who are outside is mandatory or even encouraged, they just don't necessarily share the same ground rules and processes to reinforce cooperative federation. what is this wall you allude to?
   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:14:56 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     @freemo yet again, building walled garden with a transparent wall is a formal, rather than functional difference, regardless of enforcement.

     I am reserving all judgement as to whether "your" or "their" walled garden is "better", so your arguments as to why it may be so aren't particularly relevant to this specific thread.

     My sole contention is that, based on personal observation, your proposal attracts a degree of ridicule and pushback by virtue of appearing to claim to "solve" the problem of walled gardens by implementing the problem differently. My recommendation is as simple as it is impossible; relinquish the oppositional mindset. Let "them" talk however they will of you. The difference of experience within your garden will be the only rebuttal of theirs you ever need to make.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:14:59 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • homo stultens

     @mediocreape The transparency comes in the functional how... All votes are recorded on git, an immutable repository with distributed backup.. So it would be impossible to fake the history without a public record existing to invalidate it... So it **forces** transparency.

   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:00 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     @freemo I think you misunderstand form versus function and are inadvertently arguing my case for me. I argue that the function of a walled garden is 'demarcate a space using a structure delimiting an enclosed inside and relative unenclosed outside'. The figurative windows and walls are indeed formal rather than functional, and holding the opinion that these formal addition make the garden more or less transparent according to what appears to be a 'publicly-accessible documentation' centric model of transpsparency do not change the essential walled garden.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:01 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • homo stultens

     @mediocreape the diufference is that it is a wall with windows and an open gate... while there is some similarlity (an association), beyond that it is very different.. The fact that the difference is "formal" just means there are measures in place to help ensure those measures are executed, which doesnt make them less functional.

   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:02 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     yet another apology, I appear to have dropped the @freemo and @ufoi tags off my response. The training wheels remain a little longer it seems.

   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:03 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     (end of thought-train, all change please, your patience appreciated)

   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:04 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     There is nothing inherently right or wrong with promoting this proposition as a design for a better walled garden but positioning it as an alternative to walled gardens appears disingenuous.

   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:05 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     apologies, this train of thought continues thusly...

   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:06 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     Again, that appears a formal difference rather than a functional difference. There will be a garden, and there will be a wall around it.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:07 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • homo stultens

     @mediocreape

     in that regard its an open-club anyone can join and the approval process is transparent. The rules by which one can join and are judged on are elucidated. So it is easy to judge if the cooperative follows its own rules and is truely acting in good faith....Functionally a pretty big diffrence IMO.

     @ufoi

   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:08 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     @freemo @ufoi @freemo @ufoi The difference appears to me to be one of opinion rather than function. The result is still a clearly defined 'inside' and an 'outside'.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:09 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • homo stultens

     @mediocreape

     The big difference with the UFoI is we dont deal in block lists, we deal with an allow list.. So its about creating communities not splitting them.

     @ufoi

   • Embed this notice
     homo stultens (mediocreape@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 19-Dec-2022 21:15:10 JST homo stultens

     in reply to

     @freemo @ufoi I'm extremely new here but if one of the oft-repeated criticisms of what seems to be some kind of network of admins with a shared strategy of cooperative moderation that has gradually become quite large and influential (the name of which that I haven't yet clearly been able to identify - fedifence? fediblock?) is that it creates a walled garden and as such is anathema to the free and open principles of the fediverse, proposing a competing system of large coordinated cooperative moderation strategy but it's better because it's run how i like it not how they like it will likely result in an outcome that is not appreciably different.

   • Embed this notice
     ABrockwell (aebrockwell@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 20-Dec-2022 07:08:55 JST ABrockwell

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva
     • homo stultens

     @lxo @mediocreape @freemo @lxo makes a good point here. I think the "alternate walled garden" analogy is misleading. #ufoi is an agreement between gardeners that they will not build walls between themselves.

     Alexandre Oliva likes this.