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   Kris Nóva (nova@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:04:42 JST Kris Nóva

   Would you start a profit driven corporation right now? Do you think starting a new corporation is ethical at this point?

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     mike (mikej@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:04:48 JST mike

     in reply to

     @nova I think Co Ops should become popular again

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     Ian Battersby :rust: :neovim:? (ianbattersby@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:05:26 JST Ian Battersby :rust: :neovim:?

     in reply to

     @nova Depends on the levels of transparency I feel.

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     Brian Repko (brianrepko@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:05:38 JST Brian Repko

     in reply to

     @nova B Corps maybe?

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     deB4SH (deb4sh@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:08:11 JST deB4SH

     in reply to

     @nova depends on the scope - if some of the profit is reinvested into social projects / open-source projects / r&d for local topics.. why not?

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     Chris Gardner (freestylecoder@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:09:17 JST Chris Gardner

     in reply to

     @nova That gets weird. The stakeholders need some sort of legal separation. Even if you did it through a Non-profit, that doesn't mean the people can't profit, just that the organization can't profit. Would you rather the money go to the organization or the greedy head?

     All in all, it's an ethics problem, and money has a tendency to blur ethics very quickly.

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     Chris (he/him) (chr1s4us@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:09:43 JST Chris (he/him)

     in reply to

     @nova From my point of view - a corporation is not unethical, because it is profit driven. It is the culture of a corporation which defines if its ethical or not.
     With jmoney you can give other ppl a job, meal and shelter....

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     V (v@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:10:03 JST V

     in reply to

     @nova I've been unsuccessful when I tried in the past... Maybe I was too ethical to be a successful entrepeneur.

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     Harald (oliof@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:10:34 JST Harald

     in reply to

     @nova "profit driven" as in "infinite growth"? no. profit driven as in "can finance my current way of life" likely.

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     Karen Bruner (fuzzykb@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:13:12 JST Karen Bruner

     in reply to

     @nova I hope it's still possible to create a profitable but genuinely mission-driven corporation, but it takes true commitment and intention.

     But maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.

     Ideally there would be a class of public stock which acknowledges that the mission takes some preference over pure stockholder profit.

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     yuvipanda (yuvipanda@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:15:23 JST yuvipanda

     in reply to

     @nova nope

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     Yvan DS 🗺️ :ferris: :go: (yvandasilva@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:32:29 JST Yvan DS 🗺️ :ferris: :go:

     in reply to

     @nova ?? hard question.
     Heart says no. Economy and income needs says yes.

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     Andreas Bergmeier (abergmeier@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:33:03 JST Andreas Bergmeier

     in reply to

     @nova Given that we have only one planet of resources to use - is a profit driven corporation ethical ever?

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     BeeDude :fedora_logo: (wyoham@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:35:01 JST BeeDude :fedora_logo:

     in reply to

     @nova

     I like the idea of an LLC - in a way

     Make everyone a member and share the make'ns

     Tiered membership? Has charms, but...

     LLC appears 'normal' for biz ops

     In practice is a cooperative

     Not sure how to arrange the 'goal reaching' (sometimes called leadership) facet

     Problem is, many aspects - given time and growth - becomes quite negative

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     Tom Bellin :picardfacepalm: (tob@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:37:10 JST Tom Bellin :picardfacepalm:

     in reply to

     @nova Industry is ethical and profit is ethical. Private capital is not ethical. It is a challenge to stand up a functioning business without having to reward your investors with 1000x profits.

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     Dan Crosta (dcrosta@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:39:29 JST Dan Crosta

     in reply to

     @nova I think profit-driven is not inherently the problem.

     I think the c 1980s (?) view of corporations as having a responsibility to maximize shareholder returns is an issue. I have a, perhaps romatic/naive, view that in older times (think Agatha Christie), corporate bosses understood a responsibility to workers & customers as well as to shareholders. I don't know how legally enforceable the fiduciary duty to shareholders is, but if we could crack that, I think corps-as-a-structure could be ok

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     Hazardius 🡗🡗🡗 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️ (hazardius@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 07:41:57 JST Hazardius 🡗🡗🡗 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @nova If I had enough money/power to just start a whole corporation, I'd definitely not think of using it for that, as
     1) I don't think that it's a good idea.
     2) I don't like this idea.

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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 08:16:35 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @nova No, and no. But even if I said maybe on the latter, still no on the former. Regardless of whether it's ethical, the incentives and constraints are just incompatible with anything I'd actually want to do.

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     Brian Olson (bolson@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 08:18:24 JST Brian Olson

     in reply to

     @nova if there's a product or service that people want, that makes their life better, that they want to pay for, that's fair game

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     YetAnotherGeekGuy :verified: (yetanothergeekguy@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 08:28:54 JST YetAnotherGeekGuy :verified:

     in reply to

     @nova there has to be some profit, or it isn’t a sustainable enterprise. The issue with current incorporation (C corp) is that the charters are slaved to ONLY shareholder interests. I’d submit that a benefit corporation (B corp) would be profit-driven without the soulless excesses.

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     digitalhuman@hachyderm.io's status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 08:33:12 JST DigitalHuman

     in reply to

     @nova Firstly, I find it amazing that we can have such a nice politically heavy topic being discussed reasonably? Breath of fresh air when it comes to social media.

     Regarding your question, what about the concept of a corporation would be unethical? Would you contrast it with a non-profit? A coop? A club?

     1/2

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     Kevin Kolk (siberian@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 09:56:25 JST Kevin Kolk

     in reply to

     @nova Yes, some of the best new companies come out of times of economic downturns. I don’t think that corporations are inherently unethical or unsustainable, so yes I feel that with the right leadership you can start an ethical corporation today.

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     Alan Martello (amart@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 10:13:42 JST Alan Martello

     in reply to

     @nova A profit driven corporation can (and should) be started if it can pay a living wage to the employees, treat the employees with respect and decency, sell a product that customers perceive as a good value (cost vs features), not degrade or exploit the natural environment, and have enough money to continue operating as a going concern for at least 3 to 5 years.

     If all 5 items are satisfied, then such a company is a refuge or oasis for employees when compared to most other options available.

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     Mardo (mardo@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 11:56:19 JST Mardo

     in reply to

     @nova Create a company to meet the needs of the market, and get paid for it so you can take care of your family and employees.

     Yes starting a corporation seems to make sense.

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     Kevin Webb (kvnweb@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 13:26:36 JST Kevin Webb

     in reply to

     @nova have you looked into “purpose trusts” as a potential legal model? They might be a an interesting approach for community stewardship orgs. Tries to overcome some of the unwieldiness of co-ops, and puts accountability at the core.

     https://www.purpose-us.com/writing/whats-a-perpetual-purpose-trust

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     Rick Conlee (rick@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 14:37:31 JST Rick Conlee

     in reply to

     @nova I've been kicking around the idea of a co-op cloud service, or some kind of SaaS offering that's totally employee owned. It would have to be thoughtfully constructed and have the right people to kick it off, but I think it could absolutely be done and it would be a great career launch pad for entry level folks, as well as an incubator of ideas and technologies. That's the only thing I would do at this point in the game.

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     Kwyn Sunagawa 砂川 クイン ✨ (kwyn@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 08-Dec-2022 23:44:45 JST Kwyn Sunagawa 砂川 クイン ✨

     in reply to

     @nova only way I’d start it would be using a profit sharing model and I’d try to keep it small.

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     Kashif Shah (kashif@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 09-Dec-2022 08:23:41 JST Kashif Shah

     in reply to

     @nova would love to see new corporations built on the principle of income sharing instead of on the principle of winner-takes-all.
     Intentional, ethical incorporations are where it is at.