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   Kris Nóva (nova@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:05:40 JST Kris Nóva

   What's your take on corporations?

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     Garvin :verified: (bomdia@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:07:24 JST Garvin :verified:

     in reply to

     @nova ?

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     Dave Swersky (dswersky@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:09:41 JST Dave Swersky

     in reply to

     @nova Inherently amoral, with the right tactics their interests can be made to align with individual humans

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     Andrew Moscardino (amoscardino@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:10:05 JST Andrew Moscardino

     in reply to

     @nova annoyingly necessary thus they need to be regulated (a lot)

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     Essjay ?️‍? (essjaykeys@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:11:31 JST Essjay ?️‍?

     in reply to

     @nova

     As always, the answer is -
     "It depends ..."

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     Michael Fisher (mjf_pro@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:12:34 JST Michael Fisher

     in reply to

     @nova It’s complicated and honestly I’m conflicted. They separate accountability from the people who are doing the acting, often leaving the public sector to clean up the mess while pocketing the profits for themselves. At the same time….we also live in the world we live in, and they’re a fact of life in this world. To the extent that you’d need one to legitimize a charity, for example, you don’t have other options and you put the charity at a financial disadvantage by not using it.

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     Blake Garner (trode@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:13:45 JST Blake Garner

     in reply to

     @nova They are not people

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     Ian Coldwater 📦💥 (ian@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:14:07 JST Ian Coldwater 📦💥

     in reply to

     @nova https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tI87_X52wmk

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     Morten Toudahl :verified: (mortentoudahl@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:16:36 JST Morten Toudahl :verified:

     in reply to

     @nova the bigger the badder. Their goal of generating income does not align with sustainability

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     Jamey (He/Him) ?? (jameydev@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:17:18 JST Jamey (He/Him) ??

     in reply to

     @nova corporations could be run more equitably if we oh I don't know, taxed the ultra rich executives and raised wages for the lowest level workers.

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     Davin Taddeo (tdarwin@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:19:08 JST Davin Taddeo

     in reply to

     @nova A corporation is a morally neutral for-profit business organization. By definition it is not inherently bad or good. It allows for shared ownership of a business organization while limiting some level of personal liability for the collective actions of an organization.

     I believe that corps are provided too much limitation of liability, and increased profitability is prioritized over the good of anything. But this is an issue of law, and not really a function of being a corporation.

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     pyromechanical (pyro@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:19:15 JST pyromechanical

     in reply to

     @nova that they're incapable of anything other than a net harm to the world.

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     Braydon Kains | RageCage (ragecage64@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:19:22 JST Braydon Kains | RageCage

     in reply to

     @nova As a unit they are motivated by profit and growth, which has been shown time and time again to lead to anti-consumer and anti-citizen decisions. They are only held back by individuals at the core, who think they are doing the right thing working through a profit motivated medium.

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     Katie (katiejk@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:22:03 JST Katie

     in reply to

     @nova They're fine in theory. Congress grants protection from personal liability, in return they presumably create something of value for society.

     But we've forgotten this.

     We've forgotten that the people are the source of the Congress' and therefore corporations power.

     You see it when someone is complaining about something in particular being suboptimal, and someone replies, "Well, you know. It makes more money." And everyone glumly agrees.

     Nobody stops to think, So what?

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:22:22 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     @nova 1. Amoral by nature (as opposed to immoral, though individuals in charge often are).

     2. Too easy to anthropomorphize. Like countries, we too carelessly think of them as having minds and emotions (“FooCorp wants…,” “FooCorp hates…”) when they are (1) emergent systems, not living beings, and (2) composed of many distinct individuals.

     3. When trying to understand them, start with Hanlon’s razor.

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     Amy Toebeans (renice@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:23:33 JST Amy Toebeans

     in reply to

     @nova in theory, we need something like them to build big & ambitious things. In practice, in this colonial-capitalist system, they grow uncontrolled, and cause adverse effects on the systems they exist inside

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     Adam Kaplan ??? (adambkaplan@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:25:23 JST Adam Kaplan ???

     in reply to

     @nova my spicy take is that the LLC was a tremendous legal innovation. It is hard to see how big things can be built at scale in the private sector without it.

     We went astray by making “maximize shareholder value” an operational requirement of any corporation, and by taking the “corporate personhood” doctrine literally. Corporations are a means to prosperity - we must be empowered to change their rules if they cease working for the benefit of the people.

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     Isaac ? PAX Unplugged (voidrender@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:26:31 JST Isaac ? PAX Unplugged

     in reply to

     @nova corporations are fine. It's the people that run them that I have a problem with.

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     Chris P. :trek_ds9_sisko:#1️⃣ (b4ux1t3@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:28:07 JST Chris P. :trek_ds9_sisko:#1️⃣

     in reply to

     @nova there's nothing wrong with corporations as a concept, there is a massive problem with how certain laws and societal norms are structured that shapes their incentives.

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     Jeff ♨️ Darcy (obdurodon@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:28:17 JST Jeff ♨️ Darcy

     in reply to

     @nova Corporations as they exist today are the enemy of free markets (and humans). Limited liability should not be given away for free. Corporations operating under time-limited revocable charters, barred from political participation in their own right, might be OK, but we've come a long (bad) way from that.

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     Alan Martello (amart@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:29:52 JST Alan Martello

     in reply to

     @nova corporations come in various flavors and sizes

     large public corporations: pretend to operate "for the benefit of shareholders" but really operate "for the benefit of the senior executives" - rarely (like never) operate for the benefit of the public
     
     small private corporations: more of a mixed bag; executives are more accountable to owners, but again rarely consider public benefit in decisions

     benefit corporation: ? ?
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation

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     Jesse Cooke (jc00ke@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:30:47 JST Jesse Cooke

     in reply to

     @nova they aren't people and should not be entitled to free speech.

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     David Cuthbert (dacut@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 09:40:10 JST David Cuthbert

     in reply to

     @nova Well, I have a corporation (Ionosphere LLC) because, well, I'm required to for some of the contracts I support(ed). It's also a good idea, from a legal standpoint, to keep my business interests separate from my personal life ("Oops, sorry NASA, I spilled a cup of coffee on the Mars Rover. What do you mean my wife and kids are now homeless?" Instead, Ionosphere and its insurers pay out the damages).

     So, on that front, they serve a purpose. Are they ripe for abuse? Yes. Very yes.

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     unixninja92 (unixninja92@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 10:29:00 JST unixninja92

     in reply to

     @nova corporations are far too focused on profit maximization because of the inherent interests of investors, private equity, and many c level executives. This leads to bad situations for workers, consumers, and really society as a whole. Worker owned cooperatives are a much better model that centers the workers and makes profit maximization less appealing compared to sustainability of the business and maintaining jobs.

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     Brandon Haugen (brandonhaugen@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 10:37:19 JST Brandon Haugen

     in reply to

     @nova I spent the morning in a 4 hour long meeting where Product Managers are trying to adopt Jira Align to help them better organize work that “needs to be done”. The work that “needs to be done” though is more poorly defined than the process of organizing the work. I’m tired of large corporations and the bureaucracy contained within.

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     Matt Healey (matthealey@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 11:01:23 JST Matt Healey

     in reply to

     @nova They shouldn't be treated as if they are people. They are good and bad. It depends entirely on the people running them.

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     Matt DeKrey (mdekrey@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 11:20:49 JST Matt DeKrey

     in reply to

     @nova Prefer co-ops, generally speaking. Corporations are supposed to show a profit, per court rulings (as I understand them), and I generally prefer organizations (and people) have goals aside from making money.

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     Bobsee (bobsee@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 11:36:29 JST Bobsee

     in reply to

     @nova My take is that corporations take, from employees and consumers, and take, and take.

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     Vlad_is_dev (vald@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 11:50:28 JST Vlad_is_dev

     in reply to

     @nova EVIL

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     Ludwig ?️‍? :ferris_chomp: (aloso@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 12:00:32 JST Ludwig ?️‍? :ferris_chomp:

     in reply to

     @nova our capitalist system often rewards corporations that disregard ethical standards and punishes those that try to do better. I don't think corporations are evil by necessity, but since evil corporations often drive less evil competitors out of the market, it's very hard to find decent corporations.

     I think Mozilla is a good example. Because the Mozilla corp is owned by a non-profit, they didn't have to sell their soul so far, but they are under huge pressure due to Chrome's competition.

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     krisz (krisz@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 13:56:23 JST krisz

     in reply to

     @nova This made me think of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting which is a very weird bird in the landscape of corporations since it's board is appointed by presidents, and it's a nonprofit.

     Though I believe that trouble brews whenever you get enough ambitious people together, ideally I'd probably be co-op kinda guy if I could get away with it. Like many, I'm stuck in the system of the day, and occasionally have to hold my nose.

     #CREAM

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     Kaleb Haugen :antiverified: (kaleb_haugen@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 14:18:24 JST Kaleb Haugen :antiverified:

     in reply to

     @nova corporations are just groups of people acting as one…and getting tons of special treatment that individuals do not get. i find the most compelling group organization model to be cooperatives.

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     Kaleb Haugen :antiverified: (kaleb_haugen@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 14:24:23 JST Kaleb Haugen :antiverified:

     in reply to

     @nova one of the few things #MurrayRothbard got right is that “there are no such things as ends of or actions by 'groups,' 'collectives,' or 'States,' which do not take place as actions by various specific individuals.” Corporations simply shield individuals from accountability.

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     ed atrero (edatrero@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 15:30:12 JST ed atrero

     in reply to

     @nova OP

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     Hazardius 🡗🡗🡗 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️ (hazardius@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 16:07:49 JST Hazardius 🡗🡗🡗 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @nova Not a fan. And IMHO, they can and should be able to handle their own fedi instances. The same goes for political parties.

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     (Beh-kuh)??⌨️ (beka@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 21:01:45 JST (Beh-kuh)??⌨️

     in reply to

     @nova have never bounced my paycheck 10/10 for that.

     The compassion and humanity has been wrung out of them by law so That Isn’t Great

     I like to think there space to imagine something between a corporation as we know them now and a non-profit.

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     Tony (adsouza@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Dec-2022 22:14:54 JST Tony

     in reply to

     @nova I think Ron Coase provided the best understanding of the utility provided by firms. Are you drawing a distinction between the corporation as a specific form of firm and other forms?

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     Mardo (mardo@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 07-Dec-2022 02:46:55 JST Mardo

     in reply to

     @nova If corporations weren't the answer everyone would have a non-profit.