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   Tyler Fisher (tylrfishr@social.tylerjfisher.com)'s status on Sunday, 07-Sep-2025 07:53:46 JST Tyler Fisher

   I've been pretty neutral in the ATProto vs. ActivityPub debates because I legitimately think the best possible outcome is they both exist and thrive. But the ActivityPub guys showing their whole asses today is making me rethink that stance. https://github.com/swicg/general/pull/45#issuecomment-3262517592

   • Embed this notice
     Christine Lemmer-Webber (cwebber@social.coop)'s status on Sunday, 07-Sep-2025 07:53:45 JST Christine Lemmer-Webber

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr Hi. I had signed in support of the letter, and my name is at the top of the spec. I'll weigh in more with my thoughts soon.

     (FWIW, an aside: it's also not "ActivityPub guys". In fact the AP spec was written by one dude, three women, and one nonbinary person.)

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 01:59:07 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr which part don't you like?

   • Embed this notice
     Tyler Fisher (tylrfishr@social.tylerjfisher.com)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 01:59:08 JST Tyler Fisher

     in reply to

     (Referring to the specific comment from Evan on the Github PR linked here, not the original statement in the PR, which I wholeheartedly agree with.)

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 05:57:28 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr that's really interesting! So, my opinion is based on history of standards; having two or three (or more) standards in an area slows down growth for everybody. Developers don't know which one to bet on, so they sit it out until a sure thing emerges. A great example is Bluray and HD-DVD; only when one side collapsed did the whole ecosystem take off.

     Anyway, what was your idea, with the multiple protocols? Why do you think that's the best possible outcome? Give me an example?

   • Embed this notice
     Tyler Fisher (tylrfishr@social.tylerjfisher.com)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 05:57:29 JST Tyler Fisher

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan I think it's pretty clear where we fundamentally disagree when I say "I legitimately think the best possible outcome is they both exist and thrive," and you say "Competing protocols are not good for the space. They divide the community and prevent reaching critical mass."

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:04:45 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr regardless of your answer, I don't think making a call on that question is the right thing for the Social Web Community Group. There are people in the group on both sides. I don't think it's necessary to include it in the statement in order to make the point that people should be courteous towards each other. We should be courteous because we're all human and we all deserve to be treated well.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:43:13 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr that's too bad. I don't oppose the spirit of Emelia's letter.

     I mentioned in my comment, @bnewbold.net is a member of the CG. I think it makes a lot of sense for us to find opportunities to work together. He's been great about participating in W3C and ActivityPub-related events.

     Wes Biggs from Project Liberty is part of the group too.

   • Embed this notice
     Tyler Fisher (tylrfishr@social.tylerjfisher.com)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:43:14 JST Tyler Fisher

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan I'm not in the group so I can't speak on whether it's right or not for the group to officially make such a statement. As a developer working in both spaces, I found it offputting in general for you to be so dismissive of a statement supporting collaboration.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:47:34 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr @bnewbold.net we have some rules of engagement with W3C groups, including our code of conduct:

     https://www.w3.org/policies/code-of-conduct/

     And the rules for community groups:

     https://www.w3.org/community/about/process/#general-policies

     Namely, "Participants must refrain from defaming, harassing or otherwise offending other participants or their organizations."

     So, I think we're already pretty well covered for behavioural norms.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:48:23 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr

     One thing that might be nice and generous is extending these policies to others in the distributed social network community, even if they're not members of the group.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:49:19 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr last thing, then I'll stop spamming you: you should join the group! It would be cool to have someone with experience with both protocols in the conversation.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:59:25 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @tylrfishr agreed!

     I think that finding niches in the space, and making room for interop with bridges, is a good strategy.

     I think the architectures are really different. If I were going to see them take different spaces, I'd say that AP is glue that connects a wide variety independent social networks, and AT is an attempt to build a big distributed, but uniform, social network, with lots of different functionality.

   • Embed this notice
     Tyler Fisher (tylrfishr@social.tylerjfisher.com)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:59:26 JST Tyler Fisher

     in reply to

     In any case, I don't think either ActivityPub or ATProto are in a space to be considered a "winner." More work to do on both!

   • Embed this notice
     Tyler Fisher (tylrfishr@social.tylerjfisher.com)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:59:27 JST Tyler Fisher

     in reply to

     As for places in history where theoretically competing standards can cooperate, I think there are plenty where multiple standards both work in a way that is mostly invisible to a user. IMAP/POP3, RSS/Atom. The Bridgy Fed folks are working towads a future where I think a similar flattening could occur.

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     Tyler Fisher (tylrfishr@social.tylerjfisher.com)'s status on Monday, 08-Sep-2025 06:59:28 JST Tyler Fisher

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan I think the designs of ActivityPub and ATProto have different aims, even though the primary use of each right now is a pretty similar microblogging application. As currently implemented, ActivityPub does much better with private spaces and deeply connected communities. ATProto does better with large-scale public conversation. I'd like to see both grow in those directions.