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   Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 06:41:38 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
   It's depressing how well it worked. Patriarchy is one hell of a drug.
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     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 06:50:42 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

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     @amerika Patriarchy. Both the glorification of war and pornography comes directly from the ideology of male dominance. Men proving their domineering manliness by waging war, maiming, raping, pillaging... Women being told that it's "empowering" to sleep around with as many men as possible, preferably in front of a camera (so other men can also enjoy it, and many times over after it happened), and preferably asking for nothing but money in return, because men want to use them like objects that can be bought and sold at any time without any emotional connection.
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     ≠ (amerika@annihilation.social)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 06:50:43 JST ≠

     in reply to
     @taylan
     
     Patriarchy, or egalitarianism?
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     bonifartius (bonifartius@noauthority.social)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 07:25:01 JST bonifartius

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     @taylan @amerika this is a too comfortable easy explanation.

     do women have zero agency or do they have no alternative than to do porn? might certainly be true in some places, certainly not common in the west.

     historically most men were fighting wars because they were told to do so. professional army is the exception. if anything, the existence of a class ruling by violence is the likely problem. violence in war is violence kicking down.

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     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 07:25:01 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

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     • bonifartius
     @bonifartius @amerika
     
     Do men have agency? Then why do they decide to join wars? "Agency" is a meme. It completely misses the point. Humans are fundamentally irrational creatures that are easily brainwashed into harming themselves and each other for the sake of some stupid ideology.
     
     > historically most men were fighting wars because they were told to do so
     
     And historically as well as in the present, most women end up in prostitution or pornography due to a lack of alternatives or because they're told to do it by someone they trust. But that's not what OP is about.
     
     The OP was about women who are convinced that pornography is "empowering" and men who are convinced that war is "glorious." These phenomena are the result of patriarchal ideology.
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     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 12:06:51 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

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     @amerika
     
     Nobody said society is only abusive to women.
     
     > Porn is a natural outgrowth of sexual liberation.
     > You will not have one without the other.
     
     This is like saying slavery is a natural outgrowth of agriculture and one cannot exist without the other. It's extremely pessimistic and wrong.
     
     It might be that you're using the definition of "pornography" that porn shills have successfully inserted into the public mindset through decades of propaganda, which is: "Any depiction of sexuality is pornography."
     
     Making sure that no linguistic distinction exists between positive and negative depictions of sexuality is an extremely effective method of ensuring that negative depictions of sexuality cannot be criticized, as any such criticism can then be discarded as puritanism, as if it's a criticism of all portrayal of sexuality.
     
     But if you read, for example, the definition of "pornography" put forth in the Civil Rights Ordinance (MacKinnon & Dworkin) you will notice that it's very restricted and makes it abundantly clear that positive and neutral depictions of sexuality are not included in it.
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     ≠ (amerika@annihilation.social)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 12:06:52 JST ≠

     in reply to
     @taylan
     
     Either that, or they just want money.
     
     This society is abusive to women, but not only to women, and in a large part due to their votes.
     
     Porn is a natural outgrowth of sexual liberation.
     
     You will not have one without the other.
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     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 12:10:05 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

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     • bonifartius
     @amerika @bonifartius
     
     > Men are fighting wars because the political system convinces them to do so, e.g. "the war to end all wars."
     
     This only applies to a certain subset of men who willingly go to war. Many are lured by glory, and at times indeed promises of wealth and power.
     
     The Roman Empire, if I remember correctly, incentivized soldiers and generals via promises of incredible wealth and political power. (These were delivered, too.)
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     ≠ (amerika@annihilation.social)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 12:10:06 JST ≠

     in reply to

     • bonifartius
     @taylan @bonifartius
     
     Between the last two sentences is a great disconnect.
     
     Men are fighting wars because the political system convinces them to do so, e.g. "the war to end all wars."
     
     Women think pornography is "empowering" because they can get wealthy doing it.
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     ≠ (amerika@annihilation.social)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 12:11:02 JST ≠

     in reply to
     @taylan
     
     There are no positive and neutral depictions of sexuality in porn. All of it exploits the sex act for the entertainment and schadenfreude of others.
     
     "Agriculture" does not compare to "sexual liberation" at all.
     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) likes this.
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     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 12:11:02 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

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     @amerika
     
     Then why do you say sexual liberation cannot exist without porn?
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     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 13:20:23 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

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     @amerika
     
     I think you're making a huge logical leap there. Can you not envision a society which affords people freedom in their love life, but doesn't tolerate sexual dynamics that revolve around dominance and exploitation?
     
     This is very similar to the free market vs. communism false dichotomy. Americans scream "socialism" at everything, as if any kind of regulation will immediately lead to a communist dictatorship. But in fact, many countries follow a social democratic model that allows an essentially free market while still implementing many regulations that try to curtail exploitation of workers.
     
     Why can't we have a culture that essentially allows free love, but implements "regulations" (in the form of taboos as well as some laws) that try to protect vulnerable people from sexual abuse and exploitation? Why should sexual liberation mean that we can't criticize men who want to exert physical dominance over women? Why should it mean that we can't make it illegal to produce commercial films glorifying male domination over women?
     
     No person who lives a sex life that's based around genuine mutual love and/or pleasure would in any way be limited by a law such as for instance the Civil Rights Ordinance. It wouldn't put any kind of limit on their choice in partners, number of partners, marital status when they choose to have sex, and so on. It wouldn't even limit the exchange of sexual images between partners ("sharing nudes") since the definition of pornography doesn't include that.
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     ≠ (amerika@annihilation.social)'s status on Saturday, 28-Dec-2024 13:20:24 JST ≠

     in reply to
     @taylan
     
     Sexual liberation frees people from having to behave according to cultural standards of chastity.
     
     This turns sex into a commodity.
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     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 07:34:19 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

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     • bonifartius
     @bonifartius @amerika
     
     > to say that people are brainwashed is placing yourself above them as someone who knows better what to do with their lives than they do.
     
     Yes. It's also called having an opinion.
     
     > anyone in control of their mental facilities can do how they please as long as they don't harm others.
     
     Right, and I choose to critically analyze our culture and point out that there are deeply wrong mentalities in it leading to people believing in bullshit and making bad choices. :^)
     
     Jokes aside, it does do harm to others when people join a certain mentality and that mentality is harmful, because they're normalizing it and leading to other people adopting the same mentality.
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     bonifartius (bonifartius@noauthority.social)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 07:34:20 JST bonifartius

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     @taylan @amerika
     > This only applies to a certain subset of men who willingly go to war.

     > Many are lured by glory, and at times indeed promises of wealth and power.

     these are the same. either you go voluntarily or not, motivation is irrelevant.

     to say that people are brainwashed is placing yourself above them as someone who knows better what to do with their lives than they do. anyone in control of their mental facilities can do how they please as long as they don't harm others.

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     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 08:14:10 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

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     • bonifartius
     @bonifartius @amerika
     
     > mRNA fucked up health
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     bonifartius (bonifartius@noauthority.social)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 08:14:11 JST bonifartius

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     @taylan @amerika
     people are fully responsible for their own actions. that's it. does make things pretty simple.

     i won't argue that we have deeply wrong mentalities. the idea to externalize responsibility for moral missteps is at the top of my list.

     rue doing pron? "i was brainwashed!" mRNA fucked up health? "they said i need it!" did genocide? "bibi told me to do it!"