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   Economic Sociology (econsociology@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 02-Nov-2024 08:38:46 JST Economic Sociology

   A Marxist Critique of #Liberalism: On #Capitalism and Individual Freedom -- Prabhat Patnaik looks at the notion of “#freedom” in the context of the integrated political and economic framework that we have come to call “liberalism.
   https://economicsociology.org/2024/10/25/a-marxist-critique-of-liberalism-on-capitalism-and-individual-freedom/

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     J Lou (jlou@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 01:24:32 JST J Lou

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     • ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     @EconSociology @Radical_EgoCom This ignores anti-capitalist liberalism.

     Among other things, postcapitalist liberals have proposed voluntary democratic communes, which could be associations of worker coops, with their own internal currency.

     1. This currency would have large exit fees on transfers to individuals socially distant from the community, and lower transfer fees for transfers within the community
     2. The currency could be used to purchase usage of communal collectivized capital

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     ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭ (radical_egocom@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 01:24:32 JST ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

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     • J Lou

     @jlou @EconSociology

     This doesn't sound anti-capitalist or post-capitalist at all. It sounds like these workers' co-opts would exist within a capitalist system, which would mean that capitalist exploitation on some level would still exist.

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     J Lou (jlou@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 01:44:10 JST J Lou

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     • ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     @Radical_EgoCom These can exist under capitalism as a sort of revolutionary organization, but the goal is to move towards a system based around worker coops and these democratic communes I describe with a complete abolition of the employer-employee contract

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     ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭ (radical_egocom@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 01:50:10 JST ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

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     • J Lou

     @jlou

     I can see this as a useful tool in the broader revolutionary goal of abolishing capitalism, but certainly not as any kind of endgoal.

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     J Lou (jlou@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:03:07 JST J Lou

     in reply to

     • ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     @Radical_EgoCom Why not?

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     ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭ (radical_egocom@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:10:55 JST ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

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     • J Lou

     @jlou

     In the system you described, capitalism, the private ownership of the means of production, would still exist, and thus, to some extent, the exploitation of workers, even workers within these workers' co-opts, will still exist. Competition, market pressure, and the need to make profits lead workers into situations such as long hours and insufficient pay, even within workers' co-opts. A complete removal of capitalism is necessary to completely remove capitalist exploitation.

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     J Lou (jlou@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:25:16 JST J Lou

     in reply to

     • ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     @Radical_EgoCom The democratic communes, which contain the worker coops, address those problems. In these communes, there are collectivized means of production and purchasing access to these collectivized means of production requires the communal currency, which, as I mentioned, has exit fees and transfer fees on it. These fees, which prevent value extraction, go into the commune's collective fund, which is used to fund whatever the members of all the member worker coops democratically decide

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     ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭ (radical_egocom@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:33:11 JST ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     in reply to

     • J Lou

     @jlou

     There are still outside factors to workers' co-opts that will affect them. Workers' co-opts can't exist in a vacuum, separated from the outside socio-economic environment. They will be influenced by the capitalists and corporations that control the means of production, and the exploitation that capitalist and corporate entities inflict onto others will affect even the most efficient workers' co-opts that provide the most for their workers. 1/2

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     ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭ (radical_egocom@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:33:17 JST ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     in reply to

     • J Lou

     @jlou

     If the goal is to improve the lives of workers, then workers' co-opts are a good tool to use, but if the goal is the elimination of capitalist exploitation completely, then the abolition of capitalism is required. 2/2

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     J Lou (jlou@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:46:54 JST J Lou

     in reply to

     • ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     @Radical_EgoCom Perhaps, I didn't explain clearly. By abolishing employer-employee contract, I mean that there are no capitalist corporations outside of these communes and co-ops. The economy entirely and exclusively consists of worker coops and these democratic communes of them.

     I agree merely allowing worker coops and democratic communes to exist under capitalism is insufficient

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     ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭ (radical_egocom@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:51:40 JST ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     in reply to

     • J Lou

     @jlou

     So you're talking about a post-capitalist society where capitalism has already been abolished where the economy is made up entirely of democratic workers' communes? That just sounds like Council Communism, not anything pertaining to liberalism.

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     J Lou (jlou@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:54:43 JST J Lou

     in reply to

     • ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     @Radical_EgoCom There are still markets tho

     There are anti-capitalist liberals that advocate a society exclusively consisting of worker coops. There are also postcapitalist liberals that advocate collective ownership in communes as I described as a more efficient, democratic and just alternative to private property in communities

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     ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭ (radical_egocom@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 02:57:05 JST ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

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     • J Lou

     @jlou

     Well, I'm not interested in this.

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     J Lou (jlou@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Nov-2024 03:04:07 JST J Lou

     in reply to

     • ☭ 𝗖 𝗔 𝗧 ☭

     @Radical_EgoCom Ok, fair enough. My original point was that that article hadn't taken into account anti-capitalist liberalism and was painting liberalism as entirely pro-capitalism. Many of the critiques were only targeted at pro-capitalist liberalism.

     Even if these communes aren't the end goal for you, I would argue that they are superior for the purpose of revolutionary organization than traditional orgs like unions