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   hallenbeck (hallenbeck@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 22:38:34 JST hallenbeck

   • Evan Prodromou

   @evan An interesting follow-up might be: should the Social Web be built on a single protocol?

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 22:38:33 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck did you know that we have ways for everyone to use a single protocol that isn't controlled by any one company?

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 22:39:25 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck and that, in fact, most of the Internet works that way?

   • Embed this notice
     hallenbeck (hallenbeck@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 22:55:08 JST hallenbeck

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan Does that invalidate my question? I'm not an expert on AP or AT, I'm just trying to understand the debate, but from what I've read, there are pros/cons/strengths/weaknesses with both. Are you suggesting that AP can do everything AT can do equally well and that AT is merely a competing standard and a cynical, commercial land-grab rather than an honest alternative?

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 22:55:08 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck I'm saying that protocols are a social agreement and not a technical one. If there are things in AT that we need to do in AP, we can add them, as part of an open standard. On the Internet, we collaborate on protocols and we compete on products.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 22:57:14 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck

     This isn't just about BS, either, although it's the latest startup to try to take over the social web. Farcaster raised $150M in May.

     https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/21/farcaster-a-crypto-based-social-network-raised-150m-with-just-80k-daily-users/

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 22:59:41 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck if you can think of some good examples of venture-funded startups that created open protocols that we all use today, please let me know. The best example I can come up with is Ethernet, but there are probably others.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 23:33:45 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck I would very much like to have the Bluesky team join the SocialCG and bring some of their work to AP. That'd be great; that's how open standards work.

     Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to do without them joining and signing a patent pledge (which every participant in W3C projects has to sign).

     Others can't proactively go through their protocol to pick and choose features, because if there are patented parts, we will poison AP.

   • Embed this notice
     hallenbeck (hallenbeck@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 23:33:46 JST hallenbeck

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan Is there any appetite within the community to work with AT to bring those things it does over to AP as part of an open standardisation process? Or if not that then appetite to make AT a W3C standard alongside and in collaboration with AP, acknowledging they serve somewhat different needs? The subtext I am picking up is a fear that Bluesky is leveraging VC funding to rapidly divide and conquer the social web. A sort of zero-sum protocol war funded by a company with a product.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Thursday, 31-Oct-2024 23:35:28 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck "The subtext I am picking up is a fear that Bluesky is leveraging VC funding to rapidly divide and conquer the social web. A sort of zero-sum protocol war funded by a company with a product."

     There is an alternate frame of reference, that the BS team is just another group trying some new technical approaches, but with $36M in venture funding so far, it's hard too see that frame being valid.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 00:17:13 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck I asked Mike Masnick and Bryan Newbold to work on a patent pledge at a corporate level, so others in the area can review and learn from their work. I also think participating in groups like the SocialCG, and making sure to bring their learnings proactively, help a lot too.

   • Embed this notice
     hallenbeck (hallenbeck@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 00:17:14 JST hallenbeck

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan Seems like there are a few relatively simple steps Bluesky could take here to allay some fears show real willingness and intent. To put their money where their mouth is and become an authentic collaborator and Good Actor. This to me as a non-expert sounds necessary. Hardly surprising so many form a perception that they have an ulterior motive if they don't take these steps. Seems disingenuous, simplistic, and a bit gaslighty to suggest the debate has arisen because "the fediverse is mean".

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 04:46:48 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • bryan newbold

     @bnewbold @hallenbeck that shows some real proactive engagement, Bryan.

   • Embed this notice
     hallenbeck (hallenbeck@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 04:46:50 JST hallenbeck

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan Seems entirely reasonable and healthy.

   • Embed this notice
     bryan newbold (bnewbold@social.coop)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 04:46:50 JST bryan newbold

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @hallenbeck @evan

     other folks have raised similar concerns in the past. you can see an open and and collaborative conversation from October 2023, resulting in license changes in November 2023:
     https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto-website/issues/218

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 04:47:33 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • bryan newbold

     @bnewbold @hallenbeck awesome!

   • Embed this notice
     bryan newbold (bnewbold@social.coop)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 04:47:34 JST bryan newbold

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan @hallenbeck
     We have brought some of our work to the W3C community, including the recent TPAC meeting:
     https://social.coop/@bnewbold/113199431948755006
     I've had a Bluesky-affiliated W3C account for some time, and just joined the SocialCG just now (I thought I had done this previously, but apparently had only signed up for the mailing list)

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 05:33:41 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • bryan newbold

     @bnewbold @hallenbeck one thing that we could do, if you wanted to, is publish the AT Protocol specs as a CG Report. That process is pretty lightweight, but includes granting licenses on trademark, copyright, patents, etc. It would be a quick way to make this move.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 07:48:27 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     @hallenbeck I asked something close a few months ago, assuming people want the Social Web to be successful:

     https://cosocial.ca/@evan/113162004797459787

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     Luke T. Shumaker (lukeshu@fosstodon.org)'s status on Friday, 01-Nov-2024 14:28:14 JST Luke T. Shumaker

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan Does SSH Communications Security count? (I'm not sure how they were funded in the early days.)