Pirate Praveen
#debutsav #kochi group photo. We had a session to introduce #FreeSoftware and #Debian Then people with a debian based system joined for packaging workshop. Others went for documentation sprint.
I showed updating node-del package from 7.0.0 to 7.1.0 and many people followed me and built node-del 7.1.0 in their own machines. Some started working on updating other nodejs / ruby packages to newer minor / patch releases. Hopefully some of them will stick around and contribute.
feld
LPS
@strypey @praveen My wish for #deltachat is that they would lean into the email aspect by making it a full-fledged email client that also has direct chat support.
I think this way, anyone that already understands how alternative email clients work would be more likely to install it to replace what they're already using.
It would effectively be bundling two "different" services into one:)
Just my two cents:)
Strypey
@praveen
> Delta Chat is relatively new and I don't use it
The app itself, yes. But as @lps says it uses email protocols, which are older than XMPP, and even older than HTTP!
I've been using Delta for about 5 years, with an email account I was already using with friends/ family. Many of them try it, because they can use an existing email account.
FYI I've been trying to get people I know to use XMPP since it was called Jabber, before it was standardised at the IETF. With almost no success.
LPS
@strypey @praveen @snikket_im The great thing about #deltachat is that it already uses the largest federated platform on the planet, email :) When users are both using the client conversations are automatically encrypted, and when they're not, you can still send messages to regular emails:)
Just posting this here for others that may be following this conversation delta.chat/en/
Regardless, great choice working with XMPP and all the best!
Pirate Praveen
@strypey @snikket_im Delta Chat is relatively new and I don't use it. Basically I'm already familiar with #XMPP, then #Quicksy already provides the onboarding and contact discovery familiar to most people through WhatsApp (SMS OTP sign up and contact discovery via phone book).
Unlike most other software, choice of messaging app is not just personal (the social cost of not using WhatsApp is too high and not easy for most people). So we need a different strategy and well coordinated campaign.
Strypey
@praveen
> For now I'm focusing on XMPP as I think replacing WhatsApp is more important right now
Fair. 2 questions;
1) Are you familiar with the @snikket_im project to build a modern, easy-to-use chat experience using existing XMPP software? (Full disclose: I've done little bits of paid contracting for it)
2) Why XMPP, and not Matrix, Delta.Chat (E2EE chat over email protocols), or Sup messenger (E2EE chat over ActivityPub)? Just curious.
Pirate Praveen
@strypey Fedi developers will need to go to events like this and talk to people outside usual circles. For now I'm focusing on #XMPP as I think replacing #WhatsApp is more important right now.
Strypey
@praveen
How do we make fediverse developer spaces like the FEP process, SocialHub, SocialCG, and SWF more welcoming to people like the ones in this photo?
http://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/
Piki mai, kake mai! Come on in!
feld
LPS
@strypey @praveen @feld I'm not sure how you entice new users to "yet another secure messenger" which is why I think the bundling would help, but I see your point about the less optimal experience with an existing email provider vs chatmail servers being anonymous and secure w no metadata.
Okay, wish number 2:)
If anyone is familiar with #yunohost please, if possible, package a Chatmail installer so we can make this much easier to self-host.
LPS
@strypey @praveen @feld I'm not technically proficient enough to answer that question, which is why I use Yunohost, ha ha
Does this help? yunohost.org/en/packaging_apps
feld
feld
Strypey
@feld
> But for a self-hosted E2EE messenger/chat experience (which can federate) there aren't any options that provide a good UX across all major platforms
Matrix?
feld
feld
Strypey
@feld
> Matrix devs admitted to leaving a side channel open
That is a bold claim, sir. Citation please, or withdraw.
Strypey
@delta
> The K-9 main developer @cketti is indeed working with Mozilla for two years now, together with a colleague, and they are building Thunderbird-Android -- we talk from time to time with @thunderbird folks but there are no joint dev plans.
The more I think about this, the more I find it mystifying. Why aren't all email apps adding a version of AutoCrypt and a cross-signing QR code so they can auto-E2EE messages between them and Delta Chat?
Delta Chat
@lps @strypey @praveen The K-9 main developer @cketti is indeed working with Mozilla for two years now, together with a colleague, and they are building Thunderbird-Android -- we talk from time to time with @thunderbird folks but there are no joint dev plans. As to the precise relation of Thunderbird and Mozilla, it's better to ask/inquire with them but last we heart, they run on the administrative infrastructure of Mozilla, but Thunderbird has their own separate accounting/leadership.
LPS
Delta Chat
@lps @strypey @praveen for making Delta a full-fledged e-mail client, we would need people and funds ... FYI thunderbird alone operates on >6 million yearly, not to speak of Outlook, GMail, GMX etc. DC has less than 500K yearly. For now, we rather focus on decentralized secure open-signup messaging with interactive apps, interoperable with e-mail. With sufficient growth there, we may also able to focus more on DC as an e-mail app again ... which several of us sympathize with :)
feld
Strypey
The content at that link does not justify the comment;
@feld
> Matrix devs admitted to leaving a side channel open
... as a quick skim of the intro and addendum make clear. This is the equivalent of the attention-seekers who claim XMPP is broken and unusable because metadata. Clownshoes indeed.
But if you're so motivated to slam Matrix that you'll make a claim that strong, on the basis of evidence this flimsy, I doubt anything I say will comvince you.
feld
Strypey
> How complicated is "they knew about the vulnerability for years, never documented it, never warned users, never fixed it" ?
Did you even read the page at the link you gave me?
It was documented. It was an edge case vulnerability that couldn't be made to work over a network. Even if it could, the data theoretically at risk of being exposed wasn't significant payload. It wasn't fixed because it was purely theoretical, not a production vulnerability of any significance.
Pirate Praveen
@xmppbrasil @strypey @snikket_im Monocles Chat has some nice additions on top of conversations.
XMPP Brasil
@praveen @strypey @snikket_im one of the problems with conversations/quicksy is their UI isn't so much on pair with WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal.
For the non tech user this makes a huge difference
Strypey
(1/3)
@praveen
> going forward, we want users to subscribe to cover costs. We are in the process of registering as a coop
Sounds great. The aspirations of @snikket_im and Prav seem very closely aligned, and I'm sure collaboration would be welcome. You may know this already, but for the record, Snikket is is not a co-op, but is it registered as a not-for-profit social enterprise in the UK.
Pirate Praveen
@strypey Quicksy app creates accounts on quicksy.im XMPP server, it also has a directory. Prav forked both client and server and we self host the server. Currently it runs on donations, but going forward, we want users to subscribe to cover costs. We are in the process of registering as a coop.
Strypey
@praveen
> it has to be a public service like Quicksy, hence we built Prav on Quicksy. Prav is a coop variant of Quicksy
If you mean Quicksy.im that's just a tool for matching phone numbers to JIDs, and a client app. Who hosts the servers you are encouraging people to sign up on? How are the costs of running those servers covered?
Pirate Praveen
@strypey @snikket_im 1. yes, I know about Snikket. I like what they do. I think they are able to reach only a small percentage of the WhatsApp userbase - those who can afford to self host an instance and people in their immediate circles. We can't recommend a random person to use Snikket, as the entry bar is too high. So imho, it has to be a public service like Quicksy, hence we built Prav on Quicksy. Prav is a coop variant of Quicksy. Technically both are very close to each other right now.
Strypey
(2/3)
A couple of questions, is the Prav co-op plan for each person with an account to pay a subscription? If so, will this be a requirement for use, or an optional way to support the service?
As you said in an earlier post, not everyone can afford to pay. Which is why Snikket's hosting service charges per server, not per account. The assumption is that a group of people can find a way to fund that cost more easily than each individual alone.
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