Zicklag
For the last several months I've been working on making a federated app.
I just finished migrating it to use the latest iteration of our new #leafprotocol data format on top of the #willowprotocol and so far it's going really well.
In this post I share some of the concepts and rational behind the Leaf Protocol:
https://zicklag.katharos.group/blog/introducing-leaf-protocol/
Evan Prodromou
@zicklag "One of the problems with this is that your server only knows about things that have been sent to one of its inboxes."
This is untrue. Any AP server can request data from any other server to stay in synch. Literally every AP object comes with an URL to fetch its full information.
Evan Prodromou
@zicklag "they’re not necessarily able to transfer or migrate a users data, creating a level of lock-in despite the open protocol."
You should see LOLA.
Evan Prodromou
@zicklag anyway: you're wasting your time and others' starting at this low level of the stack. Your project is doomed. You should make applications that work on top of AP, and that solve real people's problems, rather than re-inventing the wheel.
Zicklag
@evan As far as the risks as a product designer, there is a risk in every direction, but the simplest solution is usually the easiest to change and adapt to future needs / obstacles.
As far as wasting others' time, it can't waste the time of anybody who doesn't choose to invest their own time in it.
Every person's time is their own to invest. If Leaf isn't worth it that's up to them.
I'm simply betting my own time and effort that this will be the most effective road for me to build my app.
Evan Prodromou
@zicklag Protocols aren't products; they require collaboration with other implementers. You have a better chance of that if you build on top of AP.
Zicklag
@evan I don't disagree that you can make all kinds of interesting patterns on top of AP. AP is extremely flexible, but also requires unofficial draft extensions like LOLA to satisfy my use-case.
To make ActivityPub feasibly accomplish my goals would take more work than making my own simple solution.
And in the end I would have an increasingly complicated half-compatible version of ActivityPub, instead of a simpler protocol that does exactly what I need.
🧵
Evan Prodromou
@anders @zicklag I think it's improving quite a bit. We're building in end-to-end encryption and data portability. I agree that more implementations need to support the ActivityPub API and bring-your-own-domain.
&ers
@evan @zicklag I'd be more inclined to agree with you if it were clear that AP is improving in the most important ways. From my vantage point it has ossified quite a bit. Critical features aren't even being implemented by the major apps, let alone standardized. AP is a solid foundation but it needs to continue to evolve.
Evan Prodromou
@anders @zicklag That's a good hedge. The IndieWeb stack is a good one to work with.
&ers
@evan @zicklag Those are awesome features, but how much value do they have if users don't have the mobility to leave Mastodon for a provider that implements them? The fact that identity portability isn't seen as the most important issue by far gives me pause when considering building on AP. And I say this as someone who is actively developing AP software. I'm just hedging my bets by supporting other protocols as well (primarily IndieWeb atm).
Evan Prodromou
@zicklag That's an implementation problem; the counts are available from the remote server.
I highly recommend reading my upcoming book "ActivityPub: Programming for Social Web" from O'Reilly Media, coming out later this month. You can read a free pre-release version here:
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/activitypub/9781098162733/
Zicklag
@evan The fact remains that things like counts and, more importantly, post replies are not viewed identically across multiple homeservers, due to the event driven nature.
There is also the fact that you don't see any post by default if you don't follow somebody and they aren't on your server. This is particularly noticeable with single-user ActivityPub instances:
https://jvns.ca/blog/2023/08/11/some-notes-on-mastodon/#downsides-to-being-on-a-single-person-server
Evan Prodromou
@zicklag Well, I hope you figure out the right thing to do eventually. ActivityPub is an open standard and you can always come back and use it.
Zicklag
@evan I actually am making a product called Weird: https://weird.one.
I need others to be able to run federated Weird instances. That requires a standardized protocol between those instances.
But the protocol is secondary. My priority is the product.
If the protocol turns out useful elsewhere, and other people want to use it and collaborate, that's a great bonus. 🥳
Evan Prodromou
@joshshaked yes
Josh Shaked ⁂
@evan when you say the counts are available from the "remote server," do you mean the server on which the original post is located?
Evan Prodromou
@joshshaked the `replies` collection holds all the replies to the post, except those that weren't sent to the OP. `Collection` type objects have a `totalItems` property.
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