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   kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 06:46:28 JST kaia
   I started making something, but mostly thanks to ChatGPT to be honest.
   • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ and Sick Sun like this.
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     on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ (lain@lain.com)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 06:49:04 JST on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

     in reply to
     @kaia I built a shed but honestly it was mostly the power tools
     kaia likes this.
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     kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 06:49:33 JST kaia

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     @lain good point!
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     Paulajak (paulajak@boymoder.biz)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 06:51:53 JST Paulajak

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     @lain @kaia i made a hamburguer but honestly it was mostly mcdonalds
     kaia likes this.
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     iceloops (iceloops@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 06:59:13 JST iceloops

     in reply to
     @kaia game menu
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     bartholin (bartholin@fops.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 08:02:23 JST bartholin

     in reply to
     @kaia Nooooo you're a psy student, not a CS student, you cannot steal my joooob (I don't actually code) (I don't actually have a job) :blobcatreeeeeee:
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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 17:43:12 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia This is interesting to me (unlike the daily chatgpt missives I receive while at ${job}). What was the gap that chatgpt was able to bridge? If you feel comfortable sharing, what were the pain points you ran into while trying to do this before enlisting the llm?

     kaia likes this.
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     kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 17:56:14 JST kaia

     in reply to

     • Byron :computerfairies:
     @level2wizard
     I'm a psychologist with no experience around C++. after looking at Starbound leaked source code, I understood certain basics and asked ChatGPT to make this based around assets I had prepared with Stable Diffusion.
     
     my post is mis-advertising ChatGPT skills insofar as I struggle to proceed from here. I gleaned that going on would mean e.g. abstracting the assets into an asset pack and using JSON helpers to deal with assets and its meta-infos. however, the Starbound source code is too complicated for me to understand and ChatGPT only has a limited context of code it can keep in mind.
     
     a friend told me I should get MS Copilot student license and let it explain the Starbound code file-by-file.
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     on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ (lain@lain.com)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:06:09 JST on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

     in reply to
     @kaia also not sure if you've seen it but here's a game where most of the art was created with dall-e, looks great but i haven't played it yet: https://tim-rachor.itch.io/zarathustra
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:07:36 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     @lain @kaia :blobcatthonkang:
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     kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:08:56 JST kaia

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • iced depresso
     thanks checking out @lain !
     
     oh hi @icedquinn , do you know a SDL2 open source game where I could steal code from? Starbound turns out to be too difficult to steal from
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:10:11 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     @kaia @lain you're looking for this https://love2d.org/ :neocat_floof__w_:
     :blobcathug: likes this.
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     kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:12:09 JST kaia

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • iced depresso
     @icedquinn @lain
     checking, thanks! :mukiLook:
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:13:54 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • bartholin
     @bartholin @kaia @lain unfortunately the front fell off the easy game engines. rpg maker is still around i guess.
     
     in my time we had gamemaker and clickteam but gamemaker went to the spiders and clickteam still exists i guess but nobody cares anymore. oh we also had wc3's map editor.
     
     now all we got for easy mode is like.. gdevelop? bleh. i guess rpgmaker is still popular for a reason.
     kaia likes this.
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     bartholin (bartholin@fops.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:13:57 JST bartholin

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • iced depresso

     @kaia @icedquinn @lain

     1. what the heck are you trying to do
     2. making video games is notoriously hard, like making a movie
     3. use a game engine, like Unity or Godot
     kaia likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     「 Fried Fristi 」 (fristi@akkos.fritu.re)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:15:22 JST 「 Fried Fristi 」

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • iced depresso
     @kaia @icedquinn @lain doesn't sonic robo blast 2 use sdl2? You could check that out.
     kaia likes this.
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     kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:24:49 JST kaia

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • iced depresso
     • bartholin
     @bartholin @icedquinn @lain
     I'm just playing around. lot of Statistical Computing is done in C++, so I'm told learning some is beneficial for me.
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:26:15 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • bartholin
     @kaia @bartholin @lain we do most of that in python and r. sometimes julia.
     kaia likes this.
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     kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:27:35 JST kaia

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • iced depresso
     • bartholin
     @icedquinn @bartholin @lain
     yeah same, I had courses with it already :comfy:
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     ベッサーヴィッサー :verify: :verified: :verified_flashing: (besserwisser@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:33:14 JST ベッサーヴィッサー :verify: :verified: :verified_flashing:

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • iced depresso
     • bartholin
     @icedquinn @kaia @bartholin @lain Usually calling up C++ programs.
     kaia likes this.
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     kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:51:26 JST kaia

     in reply to

     • बुद्धीविनाषक् भेड़ मीपर् [Meeper]
     • Byron :computerfairies:
     @meeper @level2wizard
     yes, I was very impressed! the only issues I had was the XY placement of the buttons being incorrect. I fixed that.
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     बुद्धीविनाषक् भेड़ मीपर् [Meeper] (meeper@udongein.xyz)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:51:30 JST बुद्धीविनाषक् भेड़ मीपर् [Meeper]

     in reply to

     • Byron :computerfairies:
     @kaia @level2wizard did the code compile without tweaking?
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     on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ (lain@lain.com)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:53:03 JST on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

     in reply to

     • Byron :computerfairies:
     @kaia @level2wizard if you want to create a game (instead of learning cpp) i think you should look into renpy or rpgmaker, those are much better for beginner programmers
     kaia likes this.
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     बुद्धीविनाषक् भेड़ मीपर् [Meeper] (meeper@udongein.xyz)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 20:56:27 JST बुद्धीविनाषक् भेड़ मीपर् [Meeper]

     in reply to

     • Byron :computerfairies:
     @kaia @level2wizard that's cool wonder what level of complexity it can do :/
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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:01:25 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia

     Disclaimers: I teethed on C/C++; understanding reams of unfamiliar code is part of my day job since ~2016; I have significant statistical data showing LLMs have the downstream effect 'worse/harder/misleading'; my opinion of such systems is heavily negative.

     I took a quick look at some portions of the Starbound code, and (at least the C/C++ portions) are remarkably well-organized [when compared to what I usually see]. (1/x)

     kaia likes this.
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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:01:31 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia I do not know, and cannot know, the best ways for people to learn how to read code. However, I do know some Bad Ways To Avoid. Some of those are using Copilot* or other LLMs to interpret existent code -- whether it be file-by-file or ingesting an entire project.

     * Copilot and chatGPT (and probably other LLMs) are trained on code I have written in open- and close-sourced projects, which feels violating to me.

     (2/x)

     kaia likes this.
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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:01:43 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia Although LLMs may sound authoritative or well-written -- kind of like reading a decent high school English essay covering the themes of a book -- they are inaccurate when explaining a programming concept, its historical context, comparatives, why it exists, and **most important to your case** _what it means and what it does_.

     -- side note: You can have some fun with the LLM by responding "no, that's wrong. It's actually pointers" and see how it responds.

     (3/x)

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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:02:14 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia Having said that (and I'm here to answer questions as needed, and will accept criticism of my points), here is what I suggest.

     Conclusion 0: Avoid an LLM if possible.

     Conclusion 1: If you must use an LLM, remember that asking it to 'explain file [V] to me,' 'explain what [X] does,' or 'explain why [Y] is used here' will give you bad data, or at least data you should mistrust until verification from multiple non-LLM, non-SEO sources

     (4/x)

     kaia likes this.
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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:02:21 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia

     Conclusion 2: People suggesting renpy, rpgmaker, godot, and other game development frameworks/libraries are suggesting, as far as I know, well-validated and well-trod learning styles. I personally cannot vouch for the style (since it wasn't the one I learned on) but I can vouch for the output of people who have learned that way.

     (5/x)

     kaia likes this.
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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:02:47 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia Now we hit an appendix, which I will not call a conclusion because it's really more of a suggestions-from-me-personally list.

     I _used_ to recommend 'learn python the hard way' (even though I don't much care for python), but it has since gone behind a paywall; now, I recommend Beej's guide to C, which is still free and open-source (and frequently updated), starting from the second chapter - https://beej.us/guide/bgc/html/#hello-world

     (6/x)

     kaia likes this.
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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:02:56 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia

     - you do not need to read the guide in its entirety to get the important parts for reading code in most languages -- sections 2, 3, 4, 5, and 8 are the shortest-path that covers everything you need.

     - although the foreword says "you should have experience in another programming language!" this is not true. The guide includes the info you need at each step without linking / forwarding you to other sources.

     (7/x)

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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:03:04 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia

     If you read this far, thanks for bearing with me. I have Strong Opinions in this space but want to be welcoming and open to folks who are diving into their first experiences with building software in whatever form that takes.

     I'm happy to answer questions, point to other sources, or generally give advice _where solicited_.

     (8/8) - fin

     kaia likes this.
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     kaia (kaia@brotka.st)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:14:21 JST kaia

     in reply to

     • Byron :computerfairies:
     @level2wizard thank you for your thoughts and taking the time to lay them out!
     
     i agree that LLMs shouldn't be trusted without checking yourself. and i'm sorry to hear that you object to your code being contained in training data.
     
     i often find ChatGPT to be a valuable tool for topics where one has zero knowledge or a lot of knowledge. zero knowledge topics to get an idea what it's about, lot of knowledge topics to validate yourself whether the LLM is correct.
     
     the advantage of ChatGPT is that it addresses questions you pose. this dialectic approach is one of the most effective ways to learn. one gets instant feedback, the time between wondering and finding out is minimized.
     
     yeah the Starbound code seems really well structured and nice! that's why I started there to learn some C++ while doing something fun. i'll play around with it more, but not with the intention of finishing something.
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     bartholin (bartholin@fops.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 05-May-2024 23:31:58 JST bartholin

     in reply to

     • Byron :computerfairies:
     @kaia @level2wizard The fedi-to-female-coder pipeline
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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 06-May-2024 00:20:13 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia I appreciate that, thank you. Your third paragraph there is worrisome to me -- 'dialectic approach' and 'time [...] is minimized' are severe red flags.

     I would strongly suggest in cases where the dialectic/time pieces feel good when you get an LLM answer to immediately contradict the LLM 1-5 times, record all responses, and then ask a person with domain knowledge to validate the output (as opposed to accepting the first). That's not perfect, but 'better'

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     Byron :computerfairies: (level2wizard@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 06-May-2024 00:20:17 JST Byron :computerfairies:

     in reply to

     @kaia separately, LLMs/web scrapers being trained on my output is just an ancient wound I didn't know I had (and the same for others who couldn't control the uses of their code -- not a 'new' problem). So, there's not much we can do collectively in the way of condolences except to watch out for such things in future.

     The eventual consequence is knowledge becoming more silo'd and less accessible, which is bad :(

     kaia likes this.