Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:26 JST opal hart

   in reply to

   • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
   • wakz :cursed_verified:
   • Thigh High Socks
   @ThighHighSock @PhenomX6 @Charlamagne
   >Overlay networks like Tor and i2p are a temporary solution
   they are a permanent solution, but the solution they offer is anonymity, not internet topology. we have plenty of solutions for the latter
   • arcanicanis likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Thigh High Socks (thighhighsock@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:30 JST Thigh High Socks

     in reply to

     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     @PhenomX6 @opal @Charlamagne
     
     You're right, it looks shitty on all fronts.
     However, It's **FAR** more practical than building a mesh network, or buying out a T1 ISP (hundreds of milions of dollars).
     
     Overlay networks like Tor and i2p are a temporary solution, but eventually, if Tor provides a way for people to access websites that the mob is against, Tor will not be allowed to exist.
     
     If Texas can make a bill against social media censorship, they can make a bill against ISP censorship, so it's not totally impossible.
   • Embed this notice
     ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|?? (phenomx6@fedi.pawlicker.com)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:31 JST ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??

     in reply to

     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @ThighHighSock @opal @Charlamagne the unfortunate reality is, everything they do draws us closer to the point where fedposting is more inevitable.
     
     Congressmen are the dumbest boomers who will sell you out to avoid NZ shooting stream 2.
   • Embed this notice
     Thigh High Socks (thighhighsock@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:32 JST Thigh High Socks

     in reply to

     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     @opal @PhenomX6 @Charlamagne
     There's no "routing around them" without...
     1. Changing all the network infrastructure worldwide.
     2. Creating a mesh network.
     
     The mesh network is extremely impractical, the biggest success of this type of thing was Cuba's SNET, and that only worked in a densely populated city, where people could be convinced to hookup with the network.
     
     Honestly, I hate to say this, but we need legislation that forces low level infrastructure providers to be content neutral.
     
     Or, governments need to break up them into smaller companies.
   • Embed this notice
     opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:34 JST opal hart

     in reply to

     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @ThighHighSock @PhenomX6 @Charlamagne yeah it's obvious t1 isps are showing their cards now, they stopped caring about being a secret cabal. time to route around them.
   • Embed this notice
     Thigh High Socks (thighhighsock@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:35 JST Thigh High Socks

     in reply to

     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     @PhenomX6 @opal @Charlamagne
     > The issue with pissing people off is more he pissed people off in the free speech sphere who'd try to help him or keep the site up. When kf was up earlier this month poast users didn't like how the kiwis were fucking with them as an example (the nose, yelling at the users on the site, etc).
     
     Look, I think Josh brought a lot of drama to poast. But that isn't why this is happening now. There aren't people in the "free speech sphere" willing to defend him at Voxility, nor at Zayo, nor at path.net. We're seeing an unprecedented utilisation of the Internet's core infrastructure for censorship.
     
     You can start your own hosting company, you can even start your own ISP.
     
     But both the ISP and hosting company need to piggyback from a Tier I ISP, hence why there aren't any "free speech" tier I hosting companies. Pissing off the free speech people had NOTHING to do with this.
   • Embed this notice
     ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|?? (phenomx6@fedi.pawlicker.com)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:36 JST ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??

     in reply to

     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     @opal @Charlamagne it's more Josh pissed off an ex Google employee who was doing wetwork for a suicide hotline that never picked up the phone and with owners who tried to visit his house irl in 2017. Liz Fong Jones has been making xer life goal to remove the site from the internet to the point of coming off as a stalker and can do so since it has connections. Case in point:
     
     https://nickmonroe.blog/2019/11/28/dear-jack-twitter-is-politically-biased-heres-how/
     
     The issue with pissing people off is more he pissed people off in the free speech sphere who'd try to help him or keep the site up. When kf was up earlier this month poast users didn't like how the kiwis were fucking with them as an example (the nose, yelling at the users on the site, etc).
   • Embed this notice
     wakz :cursed_verified: (charlamagne@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:37 JST wakz :cursed_verified:

     in reply to

     • wakz :cursed_verified:

     Anyone who is more knowledgeable on the network history of Kiwi Farms, didn’t the previous solution work pretty well? Why did they suddenly switch to Zayo after graf’s suggestion if the previous solution worked? Is it because Zayo offers DDoS protection, didn’t the DDoS mitigation script that was employed earlier do a fairly good job?

   • Embed this notice
     opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:37 JST opal hart

     in reply to

     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     @Charlamagne its hard to fucking tell what works and what doesnt because jersh bumbles around pissing people off and acting surprised when he always bites the hand that feeds, thinking he can do everything himself
   • Embed this notice
     wakz :cursed_verified: (charlamagne@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:33:38 JST wakz :cursed_verified:
     New Kiwi Farms Telegram announcement:
     "I am doing two things right now:
     
     1. I am looking at strengthening our network for the return to clearnet.
     2. I am going to replicate the backend so that we can never be knocked off Tor again. This is something I can do on my own. I should have done it sooner but I thought I had more time.
     
     The reality of a Tier 1 provider like Zayo censoring the Internet is very dire and I hope you will pay attention.
     
     In the world of ISPs, there are very few real players. There are 15 tier 1 networks in existence. There are many more ISPs, but they generally all connect to a Tier 1 network.
     
     Additionally, there are even fewer ISPs which provide DDoS protection. These companies (Path, Telia, Voxility, Zayo) are more politically charged than a normal ISP. Without them, should you manage to peer, you are not on the Internet if you cannot handle DDoS attacks yourself. DDoS mitigation has never been made a core part of the Internet, and I believe that weakness is deliberately encouraged by governments, as the US government routinely utilizes DDoS attacks to censor networks like Tor.
     
     A DDoS attack can be between 1Gbps and 100Gbps or higher. A 10Gbps line is about $700/mo. This scales pretty linearly, with some bulk discounts. Not all routers can handle 10Gbps, and few routers can handle 100Gbps. Those are also thousands of dollars each. Then you actually have to find a way to scrub the attack bandwidth.
     
     Meanwhile, we are not allowed to conduct ordinary business. Without reason and without appeal, I cannot process credit cards. We would easily make five times what do now if I could simply charge people for services like any other website. That is not possible because of the financial censorship, and as a result I am very limited in what I can realistically afford to do.
     
     So, ultimately, we are reliant on a few companies to continue tolerating us and one of the best ways to be tolerated is to have an established business relationship. If you've been at one datacenter talking to the same people for 20 years, as is often the case in the industry, they are likely to handle things diplomatically. If you are dropped in their lap last weekend like a pot of boiling water, they are unlikely to.
     
     Even the companies that do want to help are often underneath companies that do not want to help. The datacenter Worldstream in the Netherlands has blocked us, and thus any company that operates out of Worldstream cannot support us.
     
     I do like my website, and after spending time on other communities I know that nothing will ever replace it if the circus of sex pests and psychologically disturbed slacktivists have their way.
     
     I also am very sad to see these state of affairs. Without breaking the law, without piracy, and without incident (like Tarrant and Jan 6 with 8chan), we have been censored at some of the highest reaches of the Internet. A handful of very mentally ill people people sending nasty emails, threatening the families of datacenter employees, and calling in favors with friends in high places have very effectively snapped the neck of the interconnected world.
     
     Every year the diversity of websites online shrinks, and the centralization of services grow. Those who should want to fight a tech oligarchy instead cheer it on and help consolidate its power. I am helplessly watching the Internet, and the freedom it has brought our entire species, die a slow death. It hurts. The Internet is being murdered by shortsighted parasites, and they will never realize how big a mistake it is until there's no going back."
     ぐぬ管 (GNU social JP管理人) and 寮 like this.
     ぐぬ管 (GNU social JP管理人) repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:35:44 JST opal hart

     in reply to

     • coldacid ?? ?? :verified:
     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @ThighHighSock @PhenomX6 @coldacid @Charlamagne
     >This is all just unhinged rambling
     it isnt unhinged, its literally this kind of shit that gets something done. and ive said similar shit so much that ive been tired of saying it myself.
     arcanicanis likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Thigh High Socks (thighhighsock@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:35:45 JST Thigh High Socks

     in reply to

     • coldacid ?? ?? :verified:
     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     @PhenomX6 @opal @coldacid @Charlamagne
     
     Mesh networking is a different thing than becoming an ISP, it's creating a seperate network, which may or may not be connected to the Internet.
     
     I think that something like SNET but more scalable is the ultimate solution.
     
     It's entirely possible in a densely populated city, as long as you can string cable between apartments/houses, and the OCCASIONAL WiFi hop is also totally okay (though it harms scalability).
     
     This can be done with consumer-grade WiFi and Ethernet equipment.
     
     If people could create a mesh network for their local cities/communities, then the many networks could be connected together, as they got bigger, the infrastructure (Ethernet cables and WiFi repeaters), could be improved to scale more (fiber optic cables on power lines).
     
     This would essentially be a way to create your own Internet, which would be far more censorship resilient, as the way a mesh network works is not hierarchical.
     
     This leaves two problems:
     1. How do we convince people to utilize such a network?
     2. When other networks are created, how will they be interconnected. (We might need to use the Internet to connect them).
     
     To answer #1, it needs to provide benefit for the users *now*, not later, maybe market it as a LAN for everyone in the neighborhood who wants to join, starting with your friends.
     
     #1 is the greatest issue, adoption has to happen in the early stages for it to grow.
     
     #2 Actually isn't too bad, the answer is litteraly "use the Internet." If worst came to worse, the locations of the devices routing data between subnets could be kept a secret.
     
     This would all pair extremely well with IPFS, the anonyminity concerns would be greatly diminished as the network isn't hierarchical, so figuring out where a local IPv6 address routes to is more difficult (especially with MAC address spoofing). IPFS could conserve bandwidth and preserve content.
     
     To scale, you'd want seperate subnets that could be connected in a way where you could still communicate directly with others, but also with people local to your subnet (once again, we're talking about Ethernet cables and WiFi repeaters, gotta save bandwidth).
     
     This is all just unhinged rambling, but I'm actually starting to think of it as a possiblity.
   • Embed this notice
     ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|?? (phenomx6@fedi.pawlicker.com)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:35:46 JST ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??

     in reply to

     • coldacid ?? ?? :verified:
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @opal @ThighHighSock @coldacid @Charlamagne Do some research on how hard it is to get into the ISP game. Not even Google could do it with Google Fiber.
     
     https://gizmodo.com/when-google-fiber-abandons-your-city-as-a-failed-experi-1833244198
     https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/7/18215743/google-fiber-leaving-louisville-service-ending
     https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/04/google-fiber-exits-louisville-pays-city-3-8m-to-clean-up-the-mess-it-left/
   • Embed this notice
     opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:35:47 JST opal hart

     in reply to

     • coldacid ?? ?? :verified:
     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @coldacid @Charlamagne @PhenomX6 @ThighHighSock all i see in this thread is "either we have to do all the work or we have to convince someone else to do all the work in order for something good to happen". most useless discussion ever.
     arcanicanis likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     coldacid ?? ?? :verified: (coldacid@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:35:49 JST coldacid ?? ?? :verified:

     in reply to

     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks

     @opal @PhenomX6 @ThighHighSock @Charlamagne seriously though the operating costs for such a network are pretty damn big, to say nothing at all about the capital that would need to be laid down to build it in the first place. I think we definitely need a freedom-friendly tier one, but short of Trump and Elon joining forces on one I don't see it happening :(

   • Embed this notice
     opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:35:49 JST opal hart

     in reply to

     • coldacid ?? ?? :verified:
     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @coldacid @PhenomX6 @ThighHighSock @Charlamagne ok so youre just gonna give up, cool
   • Embed this notice
     coldacid ?? ?? :verified: (coldacid@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:35:50 JST coldacid ?? ?? :verified:

     in reply to

     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks

     @opal
     @ThighHighSock @PhenomX6 @Charlamagne great idea. How?

   • Embed this notice
     opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:35:50 JST opal hart

     in reply to

     • coldacid ?? ?? :verified:
     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @coldacid @ThighHighSock @PhenomX6 @Charlamagne by not wasting my time here talking to dumbasses who havent made up their mind already
   • Embed this notice
     opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:37:43 JST opal hart

     in reply to

     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @PhenomX6 @ThighHighSock @Charlamagne tor operates on any tcp/ip network, im not locked to using anyone's routes.
     
     this is why i hate talking about networking with anyone
     arcanicanis likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|?? (phenomx6@fedi.pawlicker.com)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:37:44 JST ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??

     in reply to

     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @opal @ThighHighSock @Charlamagne you're still using their networks to route though
   • Embed this notice
     opal hart (opal@ap.maladaptive.art)'s status on Wednesday, 26-Oct-2022 03:38:09 JST opal hart

     in reply to

     • coldacid ?? ?? :verified:
     • ?Smoking cigs in Room 641a ??|??
     • wakz :cursed_verified:
     • Thigh High Socks
     @PhenomX6 @ThighHighSock @coldacid @Charlamagne i dont take an all-or-nothing approach to alternative routing. do some research into how that could work.
     arcanicanis likes this.