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   Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 00:39:01 JST Jack Deth

   • Tintenteufel Mhyr

   @tintenteufel
   You should probably learn what the word' racist' means. 🤔

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 01:09:29 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @sonic81 @tintenteufel
     Nope. That's bigotry. Thanks for playing.

   • Embed this notice
     Javawookie (sonic81@nerdculture.de)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 01:09:31 JST Javawookie

     in reply to

     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel if you assume someone is inherently less intelligent or chaotic evil because he belongs to a certain racial group, that's racist.
     Fantasy racist, but nevertheless something one can reflect upon.

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 01:13:56 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @sonic81 @tintenteufel
     That's correct.

   • Embed this notice
     Javawookie (sonic81@nerdculture.de)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 01:13:57 JST Javawookie

     in reply to

     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel
     Of course, you're right. Every racist is a bigot. But not every bigot is racist.
     Your turn.

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 01:23:17 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @sonic81 @tintenteufel
     Okay, let me stop being flippant.

     If you have a system that says Dwarves won't use magic (because they hate it, or whatever), it not racist to say they aren't able to, but more of a stereotype.

     That said, the system is like God in the way that it controls everything, so if 'God' says Dwarves can't use magic, it's not racist. It's just how it is.

     Is the creator of the game racist for stopping Dwarves from using magic? No, they're just balancing the game.

     No racism. 😎

   • Embed this notice
     Javawookie (sonic81@nerdculture.de)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 01:23:18 JST Javawookie

     in reply to

     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel so we both win, yay. (You'll need to edit out the "Nope" from above, to be eligible for prices, though)

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     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 01:40:11 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @sonic81 @tintenteufel
     Oh yes, the poor Goblins. 🙄

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     Javawookie (sonic81@nerdculture.de)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 01:40:12 JST Javawookie

     in reply to

     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel
     It would depend, for me, how much that discriminates them. When everyone can use magic but the dwarves... also how marginalised the dwarves are in general. Most dwarves are okay, I believe. If you'd be of the opinion gygax treated the goblins poorly, however.
     It's fantasy racism, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's victimless and therefore okay.

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     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 02:17:20 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @sonic81 @tintenteufel
     Ah, so you think that kids will play the classic good vs evil game and equate 'goblins' to real life victims? That's a BIG fuckin' leap.

     That's like the parents who claimed pretending to cast spells will lead kids to want to cast spells for real and turn to Satanism to accomplish this.

     It ignores the Human's ability to separate fiction from reality. If someone is doing that, it's not the game creators fault.

   • Embed this notice
     Javawookie (sonic81@nerdculture.de)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 02:17:22 JST Javawookie

     in reply to

     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel
     Indeed. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

     I didn't say its not victimless, I said it needs reflection and awareness. Else some kids take this as acceptable and find their own victims.

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     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 02:28:41 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @sonic81 @tintenteufel

     You lost me when you said it wasn't victimless. (which you did say, btw. see below)

     'I wouldn't go so far as to say it's victimless and therefore okay.'

     You said that. Not me.

     It is victimless and okay. In fact, it's healthy. It plays out these topics in a world where it can't hurt anyone. The faux bigotry these stories invoke actually teaches people not to discriminate and there's scientific evidence of that.

   • Embed this notice
     Javawookie (sonic81@nerdculture.de)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 02:28:42 JST Javawookie

     in reply to

     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel we're leaving the bounds of this topic now, which is sad, because we'd have a lot to discuss. I didn't say anything about fault. I didn't even say its bad. I just said, it is (fantasy) racism (and bigotry ☝️) and there should be some form of awareness.

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 03:02:17 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @sonic81 @tintenteufel

     Bigotry? yes. Racism? no.

   • Embed this notice
     Javawookie (sonic81@nerdculture.de)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 03:02:19 JST Javawookie

     in reply to

     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel
     ...as far as to say (it's victimless and therefore okay).
     You go that far, and that's okay for me. If it's scientificly backed I like it even better.

     In the end we agreed: there is racism/bigotry (and it is okay)

     🤝

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     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:22:54 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @diotima @sonic81 @tintenteufel
     No. Racism is systemic and it doesn't have anything to do with role-playing games because the creator of the game does not believe any of these races to be inferior. We already had this conversation.

   • Embed this notice
     Diotima (diotima@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:22:55 JST Diotima

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @sonic81 @tintenteufel so... no. Belief in the superiority of a race or races, whether explicit or implicit, is literally the definition of racism.

     One might argue that chaotic evil is not inherently inferior, I suppose, but "less intelligent" is pretty clear.

     For your reference:

     https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:27:10 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81

     The original question was.
     'Are the racial limitations regarding class selection and level cap (etc.) of older #DnD versions racist?'

     The answer is NO because the person who put the racial limitations on the races was not being racist. They were just balancing the game.

     If the question was, can racism exist in a game if it's written that way, then yeah. If you write a story about oppressive Elves and the Kobolds that serve them, sure. The Elves are racist. 🙄

   • Embed this notice
     Tintenteufel Mhyr (tintenteufel@mastodon.pnpde.social)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:27:12 JST Tintenteufel Mhyr

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Diotima

     @jacklaridian @diotima @sonic81 🤔

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     Diotima (diotima@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:31:20 JST Diotima

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @sonic81 @tintenteufel

     Sorry, but you're confusing institutional racism... which is systemic... with garden variety individual racism. That's a common mistake.

     As far as what the creators of old D&D believe, I've not had a chance to ask them. But take the 3E stats: Half-Orcs are provided a -2 to both INT and CHA, and +2 to STR. That's a pretty strong statement from the devs.

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:31:20 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @diotima @sonic81 @tintenteufel
     A statement of what? That they hate Half-Orcs? Do you realize how dumb you sound right now?

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:34:04 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Dave Clark
     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @bedirthan @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81
     Orcs don't fucking exist, you moron. Who said this? An NPC in a game, the developer, Gygax himself. It' not racist (or bigotry) if you're referring to a FICTIONAL race.

   • Embed this notice
     Dave Clark (bedirthan@dice.camp)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:34:06 JST Dave Clark

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81 you're suggesting that the person who said murdering all orc children because they were orcs while using the language of racism wasn't racist?

     What else is advocating for genocide of savages incapable of becoming civilized?

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     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:40:18 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Dave Clark
     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @bedirthan @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81
     So, now you are comparing Orcs to Black people, just because he used the word 'savage'? Jesus

   • Embed this notice
     Dave Clark (bedirthan@dice.camp)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:40:19 JST Dave Clark

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81 Gygax, who specifically and explicitly used the language that racists used to describe people from Africa to describe orcs, said that all orc children deserved to die because they are savages who can never be civilized.

     He chose his descriptions of race to echo racists. He chose to advocate for fictional genocide towards people he described they way racists describe people.

     That's a him problem. Not a me problem.

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:43:28 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Dave Clark
     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @bedirthan @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81
     You're claiming Gygax was racist against black people and he showed it by how he spoke about a fictional race? That sum it up?

   • Embed this notice
     Dave Clark (bedirthan@dice.camp)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:43:29 JST Dave Clark

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81 no, I don't think that any reasonable person would read my statement and think that.

   • Embed this notice
     Jack Deth (jacklaridian@social.horrorhub.club)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:49:40 JST Jack Deth

     in reply to

     • Dave Clark
     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @bedirthan @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81
     Responsible for what? You act like this is a bad thing, using words that sound like the kind of words racists might use. We're still talking about fictional races. Are you saying he's responsible if someone goes out and attacks an Orc on the street? This is so dumb.

   • Embed this notice
     Dave Clark (bedirthan@dice.camp)'s status on Thursday, 11-Apr-2024 05:49:42 JST Dave Clark

     in reply to

     • Javawookie
     • Diotima
     • Tintenteufel Mhyr

     @jacklaridian @tintenteufel @diotima @sonic81 No. I used specific words.

     He used the language of racists -- that doesn't mean he's a racist. We all tend to exist on an imperfect spectrum of racism. It's not an on-off switch.

     When one echoes phenotypical racism, phrenology, and race science while inventing a game they are responsible for those choices